how do you think universe was built by isn't it really strange,when we see a toy or a car we know the creator but when you *athiests* see the sun or the animals do you ask that question or avoid it ?

Suppose I don't know. Does that make your god more likely?

If I tell you I have a million dollars in my pocket and you can't prove otherwise, does that make me rich?

The answer to both questions is: No. The lack of knowledge doesn't make some explanation more likely. This is a logical fallacy called the "argument from ignorance". You often hear this from people who don't have any evidence for their position, but want to shift the burden away from them.

If you claim there is a god, you must provide evidence of that claim. If you can't others are right to be skeptical of that claim and not believe it. It's been my experience that apologists, people who argue (poorly) for god, commonly use deception, logical fallacies, or emotional manipulation. Please understand that many people don't find these things convincing. If you use them, you're basically admitting that you don't have good evidence for your claim. We already know this from experience.

Atheists people who don't believe god claims (for lack of evidence). If you have evidence for your god, please present it. If you don't have evidence for your claim, why do you believe in it? Because you bought into the idea that you're going to heaven?

When i see the Sun, i see some gigantic "fireball" that is wasting most of its energy on nothing, a tiny part of it shines on the planet. It helps, but on the other side it's also quite harmful for the humans. I learned that at some point it will destroy the planet when it "self destructs", might take a while though. In the end however, i see a Sun, one of many, I don't see the big light that God put up in heavens for me, and if he/she/it really did it, then i don't know it.

I can only assume that your God it, or some other God, or many gods together, or.. that some huge space bird pooped and it was there, or so many other reasons for why it could be there. All that is imagination though and has nothing to do with knowledge.

When I see a car or a house, it is something that I recognize as being built, even built by humans because I know that people build similar stuff and that stuff differs from things that I saw occur naturally.

When I look at the universe however, I see something that I don't really have much information about. But i think i am safe to bet that you never watched people (or Gods) make other universes before, or anything like it, so you don't really have a basis to be able to say "oh this is that thing that Gods make out of nothing". It's size and the fascinating things about it, and the huge amount of things you don't know about it might make you IMAGINE that it could have been designed by some supernatural, very powerful entity that you call God, especially if some old book says that your God did it, and you believe it already because you were raised by people who believe it and respect that book, in an environment with many people who also believe it and want you to believe it.

In that case you already presume that God is the big boss who makes everything, which is why it is really easy to think that God created the universe when you think about it.

But... did you ever consider other Gods? There are many Gods who people believe(d) in, your version is just one of many and probably one of the younger versions, people believe it since 1400-2000 years ago, unlike many other versions who people believed in many thousands of years ago and some still believe in them.

Fact however is, NONE of the people know for sure who made the universe, or if somebody made it at all. They are arguing from ignorance like Mr. Baker explained, and because their belief is pre-set by social pressure and religious indoctrination, started by people who died long time ago, who you believe were in contact with God and that he told them what he did. And of course because the book says that they will go to heaven if they believe it and have sex with virgins or whatever.

Let me ask you something... Would you change your opinion that Allah (or Yahweh or whoever you believe in) built it, if i told you it was actually built by some guy named Hugo, his brother Fred and their elephant army from another universe? They have a huge machine for that (pulled by the elephant army in specially designed space suits for elephants) and they are making universes as a hobby every once in a while.

I have a book where he explained how he did it. There are more informations about the universe than your old book has, the book is written in your language and explains pretty much all you know about the universe in detail, even more than you know. Would you believe me if i really show you the book or would you still think your God did it? Well I think I already know the answer..

Another question, did you ever imagine that there might be NO God at all? For me it is really awesome to look at the world the way it is, without having in mind that some supreme being is looking at me and wants me to love him and be afraid of him at same time, but that he never tells me anything on his own and actually gives me no reason to believe in him, yet wants me to behave like some people wrote in some old books... and that i will burn in hell if i don't believe in him and do exactly as the book says. There are so many books like yours, some of them have many of the same arguments and stories about God, but none of them have real proof for their existence. Some of them have similar threats though.. all in all, it makes it really difficult to choose a version if you really think about them, but for me it made it pretty easy to reject them all, especially after realizing that they are loaded with lies and incoherent nonsense.

Furthermore, i find it ridiculous when i try to imagine that such a being, so powerfull and all knowing, needs some ancient murdering ignorant sheep herders to spread the word of his existence and write down his rules. I would expect that being to be able to spread his word more effectively and explain what he wants and why he wants it without threatening me and telling me that i am only a good human if i believe what some old book says..

I live without having God in mind, I don't believe that any of the versions people believe in exist, but if some of them exist and want me to do ANYTHING, they probably know where to find me so he/she/it/they can tell me in person, or make me understand personally otherwise.

So long i will use my brain to think and not let other people and some old books think for me, and i will be my own boss, at least when it comes to what i believe and how i live. I can only recommend trying to be your own boss and not a slave to the imaginary.

Jay, when I read you I see a gigantic bloated ball of gas too.

This video counters (if you want to call it like that) your "argument" in the shortest, most elegant manner I have ever seen.

It's only about 50 seconds long, so you'll manage.

Take a look:

http://www.youtube.com/user/eequalsfb#p/u/12/0C2E9_XgoCM

Your own proposition defeats itself.

Your base position is that everything, including the universe, has a creator. So who created the creator? You then propose that god is the uncreated creator. This ruins your base position that everything has a creator.

I think you would enjoy some research on Thomas Aquinas and his Quinque viae. Do not forget to pay close attention to the criticisms as well. You do not want to fall into the same pitfalls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinque_viae

Courtfool, your name is apt.

Why thank you.

The argument from ignorance (AFI). Its both ineffective and offensive to me as a human being because In essence you are saying "I don't know, it must be god."

Multiple points to get to here - tuck your kids in for the night.

1. To use the AFI leaves you vulnerable to dissection, because you are not an expert in every field. For example, you used the sun in your post. Science clearly explains how the sun works, was formed, and will eventually do. A simple internet search could have told you, but you just handed the win to god and absolved yourself of doing the hard work of reading.

2. To use the AFI absolves you of the work of discovery, investigation, and questioning - it leaves you an intellectual child looking to an adult for all the answers. The AFI cripples us as a species because it lets us take the lazy road to "wisdom".

3. The AFI is a single-edged blade in that it only cuts one way. If an atheist were to press an theist about how they feel the universe came into being, when the theist is pushed to the logical conclusion of "I dont have all the answers" it somehow enters the domain of "god did it" and becomes immune to further questioning. When the theist pushes the atheist into a corner and the atheist reaches the conclusion of "i dont have all the answers" the theist then pushes it into the domain of "god did it" and walks away with a seeming victory. Leading with the AFI just says "no matter what you say, i will always attribute things that cannot be explained 100% to god in their entirety".

4. Your toy car analogy is flawed. You know how a toy car works. You have seen both other toy cars and real cars function. You have the means to grasp the mechanics behind their production and employment. Nothing about a car is a mystery to you or is beyond your comprehension.

To draw that analogy is to imply that you understand fully everything about creation and can trace it back to its source (presumably god). You cannot honestly do so under any logical process.

Let's say for a second that we have a device which clearly looks designed. Something made by aliens perhaps. Now i can see the device but i still have no idea who made it. However now you come along and claim that it was made by the Canai on planet Quron. You make this claim based on no evidence, you might as well have made everything up, so how is anyone supposed to know that what you say is the truth?

And this is basicly what you do with god. But its even worse because you don't have something clearly created at all. You are just making assumptions based on nothing.