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General Discussion
Prophecies

How do atheists explain the prophecies in the old testament that were written decades or even centuries before the new testament, that were fulfilled by Jesus Christ?

Please enumerate which one's you're talking about. If you're feeling lazy, pick the very best one and let's discuss it.

I've always heard about "Bible prophecies", but I've rarely heard any specifics. What specifics I've heard is just spin on old stories or old stories that have gone through "midrash", which is a kind of cut-copy-edit-paste operation that is well known in Bible scholarship (and is far from miraculous).

To expand a bit, I don't know of anything in the Bible that qualifies as solid support for anything supernatural (or even particularly remarkable). It's a bunch of lore that's been used too often as a justification for persecution, suppression, and killing.

The Dead Sea Scrolls have no support for Christianity. Only the Hebrew Jewish old books (some found in the Old Testament) are in the scrolls.

The "War Scroll" does not indicate that the Jewish sect of Qumran was pacifist. The sect was Jewish and the Hebrew Scriptures and the importance of the Torah in the sectarian documents makes this undeniable.

The Dead Sea Scrolls do not give names like Jesus or any apostles or anyone else. The Dead Sea Scrolls speak of the "spouter of lies," "Teacher of Righteousness," "Messiah" and "Wicked Priest" that is all that is there.

The word "Messiah" is a translation of the Hebrew word Mashiach, which means, Anointed. It refers to a person being anointed with oil. Every King is a Messiah; the Jews at Qumran are referring to a future anointed king as The Messiah.

No one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, and the Second Coming does not fix the problem for apologists because Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) no concept of a second coming exists.

Christianity claims that God assumes human form. The Torah says God is not a mortal (Numbers 23:19). No Jewish belief supports a human/ savior god that died on a Roman cross. The Messiah is a future King.

The Old Testament came from Ugarit. The OT story of the flood has an almost exact copy in Ugaritic literature. The Ugaritic (Cannanite) literature is similar to work in Hebrew composed between the seventh and the third century B.C. There is not one shred of evidence that any Israeli slaves ever lived in ancient Egypt. The Old Testament that supposedly came from Moses is probably based on the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten, who is also credited with creating monotheism. Like Moses Akhenaten led an exodus from Egypt. There was never any ancient sprawling kingdom of Israel; there was an ancient Jerusalem, but not the mythical kingdom of Israel. That phrase comes from the combination of three ancient deities, Isis - Ra, and El., and Moses never existed. An Egyptian pharaoh named Ptolemy first collected various books and put them together, it was a Pagan pharaoh named Ptolemy who put together what resembles the Bible of today. Ptolemy had the OT books around 250 B.C.

The Israelites lived for centuries with the Canaanites. Many of the sacrifices that are mentioned in the Ugaritic texts have names that are identical to those described in the book of Leviticus. It is also clear that Ugaritic and early biblical Hebrew poetry share a common literary tradition. El was used as the name of the all-powerful God of monotheistic religions. The Israelites identified him with their God YHWH in order to develop the monotheism of the Torah. Then, much later, under Jewish and Christian influence, Muhammad declared El, under his Arabic designation, Allah, to be the one true God and founded Islam.

When the royal palace of Ugarit was uncovered, a large number of cuneiform tablets were found. These tablets were the literature written down in about 1375 BCE but much older in origin. This literature described Canaanite gods that can be found in the Hebrew Bible.

If you would care to read a book on the subject: Mark S Smith, 'The origins of biblical monotheism: Israel's polytheistic background and the Ugaritic texts', New York: Oxford University Press, 2001.

thanks for your answer Linda. what specific sources do you have that show that Israel is likely the combination of Isis, Ra and El? this subject interests me as i like the various Gilgamesh stories and wouldn't mind reading about Akhenaten's exodus (especially if it takes the form of epic poetry).

tragicslip said, "thanks for your answer Linda. what specific sources do you have that show that Israel is likely the combination of Isis, Ra and El? this subject interests me as i like the various Gilgamesh stories and wouldn't mind reading about Akhenaten's exodus (especially if it takes the form of epic poetry)."

Gilgamesh is the story of the ancient King of Uruk. It is thought to be the oldest recorded story in the world. There are probably hundreds of thousands of books on that subject.

The way to research anything is to read the information from objective sources, like archaeologists. It is important to read the work of scientists and scholars who are interested in following the evidence where ever it leads, and "letting the chips fall where they may." People who start out to prove something is true probably won't do that.

When people do honest research they don't start out to prove something they are looking for what is there, and they let the evidence tell them what is true. Archaeologists are very competitive and they want to discover important finds. They can't be concerned about whether or not the public will like what they have found. Archaeological sweeps of the Sinai have failed to find any evidence of Moses et al wandering there.

If someone wants to research the claim that archaeological finds attest to the fact that the religious beliefs of Egypt, Canaan, and Mesopotamia were transformed into the Bible's worshiping the Golden Calf story on Mount Sinai. What facts back that up? This is the way to do research. You look for material on this subject in the library in books, chronicles, archives and records.

When you find that the only god specifically called a Golden Calf by the ancient Egyptians in their writings is Pharaoh in the Old Kingdom Pyramid Texts. That information was found in letters from Canaanite princes addressed to Pharaoh Akhenaten. If this was transformed into the Bible's worshiping the Golden Calf story on Mount Sinai who was Moses really. Akhenaten was able to abolish the complex pantheon of the ancient Egyptian religion and replace it with a single God. The same story is told about Moses. Akhenaten and his followers had to exodus Egypt into the Sinai, isn't that a coincidence, so was Moses. A number of archaeologists and scholars have found through research that there were never any Hebrew slaves in Egypt, no exodus or wandering the desert.

The OT story claims Moses was given the law on Mt. Sinai and was ordered by God to bring the law down to his people. That is not true, because it can be demonstrated to be false. It is also a fact that the Ten Commandments were not given to Moses on Mt. Sinai they came from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. This can easily be found to be true with a little research.

In the bible story Aaron is portrayed as casting a molten calf of gold from jewelry, earrings being given by the recently freed from Egypt Hebrew slaves (Ex 32:2-3). In the bible story they declare that the Golden Calf led them up out of Egypt to the Holy Mount. See? The two stories are morphed together. There was no Moses who wrote the first five books of the bible. Archeologists and Scholars know that many different people wrote them over many centuries.

Cuneiform texts of Ras Shamara - Ugarit attests that much of the Old Testament and the ancient Hebrew god were borrowed from the Canaanites. The Jewish people evolved from polytheism to monotheism with the promotion of a god who had been known by a variety of names, into one supreme God, Yahweh who had a consort, Asherah. This female entity was later merged by Greek and Roman traditions into Aphrodite and Venus, and known earlier to the Egyptians as Isis.

I think that this is much more fun than reading one book and believing every word is true. We now know that Moses didn't write the first five books of the Bible, known as the Torah. Scholars know that a single individual did not write the first five books of the Bible. The first five books are a compilation of conflicting diverse writing composed over many centuries. Moses (One person) was not the author of the first five books of the Bible, known as the Torah (the law) or the Pentateuch. In which, by the way, Moses recounts his own funeral.

The etymology of the name Israel - Is (either Isis or tomb) Ra (Head of the Egyptian Pantheon) El (Lord - Baal). Moses at Mt. Sinai is a biblical yarn. It's not true.

Tel Aviv University's archaeological investigation at Megiddo and examination of the six-sided gate there dates it to the 9th Century BCE, not the 10th Century BCE claimed by earlier investigators who attributed it to Solomon. Solomon and David are entirely absent in the archaeological record.

Most archaeologists know that the Jews did not come from some other place to Canaan, they were Canaanites.

nice information , yes you need to do your research carefully .

"The Old Testament that supposedly came from Moses is probably based on the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten, who is also credited with creating monotheism."

"Sigmun Freud argued that Akhenaten was striving to promote monotheism, something that the biblical Moses was able to achieve."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

As far as the exodus ? just because small temporary camps have not been found is neither here nor there ?

Where are all the intermediate fossils missing from the fossil record that darwin assumed would be found ?

All TRUTH passes through 3 stages: FIRST, it is ridiculed; SECOND, it is violently opposed; and THIRD, it is accepted as being self-evident

Anyone with Internet access can write and make changes to Wikipedia articles. Your Wikipedia addresses are not evidence of anything. Genius - there was never a Moses who wrote the first five books of the bible!

When people do honest research they are not trying to prove something they already believe, they are looking for what is true. If you would care to read a book on the subject: Mark S Smith, 'The origins of biblical monotheism: Israel's polytheistic background and the Ugaritic texts', New York: Oxford University Press, 2001.

I have given you historical accounts and the documentation that dispute what you already believe is true, but the discrepancies just whiz over your head like a helium filled balloon. You ignore it in favor of your religious bias. In the New Testament are inspired and authoritative books referred to as the writings of Moses; we have the testimony of Jesus Christ and of his apostles to their genuineness and authenticity. Let's just see how much truth there is in that.

Archaeologists are very competitive and they want to discover important finds. They can't be concerned about whether or not the public will like what they have found. Archaeological sweeps of the Sinai have failed to find any evidence of Moses et al wandering there. This is the way to do research. What facts back it up? If someone wants to research a claim that archaeological finds attest to the fact that the religious beliefs of Egypt, Canaan, and Mesopotamia were transformed into the Bible's worshiping the Golden Calf story on Mount Sinai - look at the real evidence.

you find that the only god specifically called a Golden Calf by the ancient Egyptians in their writings is Pharaoh in the Old Kingdom Pyramid Texts. That information was found in letters from Canaanite princes addressed to Pharaoh Akhenaten. If this was transformed into the Bible's worshiping the Golden Calf story on Mount Sinai who was Moses? Akhenaten was able to abolish the complex pantheon of the ancient Egyptian religion and replace it with a single God. The same story is told about Moses. Akhenaten and his followers had to exodus Egypt into the Sinai, isn't that a coincidence, so was Moses. A number of archaeologists and scholars have found through research that there were never any Hebrew slaves in Egypt, no exodus or wandering the desert.

The OT story claims Moses was given the law on Mt. Sinai and was ordered by God to bring the law down to his people. That is not true, because it can be demonstrated to be false. It is also a fact that the Ten Commandments were not given to Moses on Mt. Sinai they came from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. This can easily be found to be true with a little research.

In the bible story Aaron is portrayed as casting a molten calf of gold from jewelry, earrings being given by the recently freed from Egypt Hebrew slaves (Ex 32:2-3). In the bible story they declare that the Golden Calf led them up out of Egypt to the Holy Mount. Understand? The two stories are morphed together. There was no Moses who wrote the first five books of the bible. Archeologists and Scholars know that many different people wrote them over many centuries.

Cuneiform texts of Ras Shamara - Ugarit attests that much of the Old Testament and the ancient Hebrew god were borrowed from the Canaanites. The Jewish people evolved from polytheism to monotheism with the promotion of a god who had been known by a variety of names, into one supreme God, Yahweh who had a consort, Asherah. This female entity was later merged by Greek and Roman traditions into Aphrodite and Venus, and known earlier to the Egyptians as Isis.

We now know that Moses didn't write the first five books of the Bible, known as the Torah. Scholars know that a single individual did not write the first five books of the Bible. The first five books are a compilation of conflicting diverse writing composed over many centuries. Moses (One person) was not the author of the first five books of the Bible, known as the Torah (the law) or the Pentateuch. In which, by the way, Moses recounts his own funeral.

The first five books of the Bible are known as the Pentateuch, which is a Greek word meaning five-fold work; penta (five) and teuchos, in Greek means (roll or volume). The Jews always considered the five books as one work; they called the whole work The Torah, The Law, or The Law of Moses. It was originally one book, that was later divided into five parts. English Bibles do not separate these five books from the rest of the Old Testament writings, as in the Hebrew Bible, but over each one of them is a title that attributes Moses as its author, The First Book of Moses is called Genesis. Moses wrote the books titled Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; bit these words come from languages that he had never heard of. Four of them are Greek words, and one of them, Numbers, is a Latin word.

An alleged Moses didn't use the Latin language because there was no Latin language in the world until many hundreds of years after the supposed time of Moses. Over the Latin title in the Hebrew Bible is the Hebrew word Torah, and that is the name by which these books were known among the Jews; meaning The Law. The titles give no information about who were the authors of these books.

Ok (Linda) now where on a first name basis i,ll talk to you as you do me ?

Genius _(LINDA)

The OT story claims Moses was given the law on Mt. Sinai and was ordered by God to bring the law down to his people. That is not true, because it can be demonstrated to be false. It is also a fact that the Ten Commandments were not given to Moses on Mt. Sinai they came from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. This can easily be found to be true with a little research.

(JOHN)

The part of the Book of the Dead in question is the Papyrus of Ani, where a "negative confession" is given. That is, a person who has died and is entering the underworld is listing sinful things that they have refrained from doing, and thus declaring themselves worthy to enter the underworld. These aren't commandments being given here, simply statements the person is saying about themselves, though they are declaring these things to be sinful, as the ten commandments are doing.

The points of comparison are these:

1)

Commandment: "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain"

Negative confession: "I have not cursed God."

2)

Commandment: "Honor your father and your mother"

Negative confession: "I have not opposed my family and kinsfolk."

3)

Commandment: "You shall not kill (murder)."

Negative confession: "I have not committed murder."

4)

Commandment: "You shall not commit adultery."

Negative confession: "I have not committed adultery."

5)

Commandment: "You shall not steal."

Negative confession: "I have not stolen."

6)

Commandment: "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

Negative confession: "I have not uttered lies."

However, what you fail to point out is that the "negative confession" includes about a hundred sins, including stopping the flow of water, homosexuality, causing hunger, raising your voice, acting with arrogance, acting with undue haste, stirring up strife, cursing men, eating hearts, and many others. So, essentially, whoever wrote the Papyrus of Ani has listed one hundred things that they found to be sinful, including over ninety sins that weren't included in the Ten Commandments.

suppose that I ask one person to list around a hundred things that they find to be sinful, and then ask another person to list ten things that they find to be sinful. Is it going to be at all unusual if both lists contain about seven of the same sins? Just about everyone is going to include murder, robbery, adultery and lying (four of the sins in common between Ani and Exodus). Those who believe in honoring gods (as the writers of both books did) are probably going to include blasphemy.

So the fact that some of the same sins are included in both lists aren't a sign of copycatting at all, but only signify that different people in different places consider many of the same things to be sinful .

Mankind is the same yesterday and today , we have the same desires and were made in GODS image , so if there similiarities between Beliefs , well i,ll be gobsmacked hey ?

The Papyrus of Ani, from the Egyptian Book of the Dead (full text here) says (in part):

1) I have not committed sins against men.

2) I have not opposed my family and kinsfolk.

3) I have not acted fraudulently in the Seat of Truth.

4) I have not known men who were of no account.

5) I have not wrought evil.

6) I have not made it to be the first [consideration daily that unnecessary] work should be done for me.

7) I have not brought forward my name for dignities.

8) I have not [attempted] to direct servants [I have not belittled God].

9) I have not defrauded the humble man of his property.

10) I have not done what the gods abominate.

11) I have not vilified a slave to his master.

12) I have not inflicted pain.

13) I have not caused anyone to go hungry.

14) I have not made any man to weep.

15) I have not committed murder.

16) I have not given the order for murder to be committed.

17) I have not caused calamities to befall men and women.

18) I have not plundered the offerings in the temples.

19) I have not defrauded the gods of their cake-offerings.

20) I have not carried off the fenkhu cakes [offered to] the Spirits.

21) I have not committed fornication.

22) I have not masturbated [in the sanctuaries of the god of my city].

23) I have not diminished from the bushel.

24) I have not filched [land from my neighbour's estate and] added it to my own acre.

25) I have not encroached upon the fields [of others].

26) I have not added to the weights of the scales.

27) I have not depressed the pointer of the balance.

28) I have not carried away the milk from the mouths of children.

29) I have not driven the cattle away from their pastures.

30) I have not snared the geese in the goose-pens of the gods.

31) I have not caught fish with bait made of the bodies of the same kind of fish.

32) I have not stopped water when it should flow.

33) I have not made a cutting in a canal of running water.

34) I have not extinguished a fire when it should burn.

35) I have not violated the times [of offering] the chosen meat offerings.

36) I have not driven away the cattle on the estates of the gods.

37) I have not turned back the god at his appearances.

38) I have not committed sin.

39) I have not committed robbery with violence.

40) I have not stolen.

41) I have not slain men and women.

42) I have not stolen grain.

43) I have not purloined offerings.

44) I have not stolen the property of God.

45) I have not uttered lies.

46) I have not carried away food.

47) I have not uttered curses.

48) I have not committed adultery.

49) I have not lain with men.

50) I have made none to weep.

51) I have not eaten the heart.

52) I have not attacked any man.

53) I am not a man of deceit.

54) I have not stolen cultivated land.

55) I have not been an eavesdropper.

56) I have not slandered [no man].

57) I have not been angry without just cause.

58) I have not debauched the wife of any man.

59) I have not polluted myself.

60) I have terrorized none.

61) I have not transgressed [the law].

62) I have not been wroth.

63) I have not shut my ears to the words of truth.

64) I have not blasphemed.

65) I am not a man of violence.

66) I have not been a stirrer up of strife.

67) I have not acted with undue haste.

68) I have not pried into matters.

69) I have not multiplied my words in speaking.

70) I have wronged none.

71) I have done no evil.

72) I have not worked witchcraft against the king.

73) I have never raised my voice.

74) I have not cursed God.

75) I have not acted with arrogance.

76) I have not stolen the bread of the gods.

77) I have not carried away the khenfu cakes from the Spirits of the dead.

78) I have not snatched away the bread of the child, nor treated with contempt the god of my city.

79) I have not slain the cattle belonging to the god.

80) I have not made light the bushel.

81) I have not acted deceitfully.

82) I have not uttered evil words.

83) I have not slain a bull which was the property of the god.

84) I have not pillaged the lands which have been ploughed.

85) I have never pried into matters [to make mischief].

86) I have not set my mouth in motion.

87) I have not been wroth except with reason.

88) I have not been a man of anger.

89) I have not turned a deaf ear to the words of truth.

90) I have not stirred up strife.

91) I have not committed acts of sexual impurity, or lain with men.

92) I have cursed no man.

93) I have not acted in a violent or oppressive manner.

94) I have not acted [or judged] hastily.

95) I have not done things to effect the cursing of [the king].

96) I have not acted with insufferable insolence.

97) I have not sought to make myself unduly distinguished.

98) I have not increased my wealth except through such things are [justly] my own possessions.

99) I have not scorned [or treated with contempt] the god of my town

This is what the Atheist Experience does , its gives PART information , but again i have learnt something .

Refrain from bellitling people and they may stay long enough to learn more rather than be at odds ??

But jesus did say he's come not to bring peace but a sword and to divide ?

So maybe its just a sign of the times xx

Yes, people made all this religious clap trap up because there are no god/gods. What has been found out along with scientific discoveries about the universe make it very clear.

The Ten Commandments come from the Egyptian Principles of Ma'at written at least 2000 years earlier. This was the ancient Egyptians code of ethics, justice, principle and righteousness, which has been recorded in volumes of wisdom literature, such as, the declarations from the book of coming forth by day "The Egyptian Book of The Dead", the Papyrus of Ani Chapter 125 of the Book of The Dead, often called the 42 Declarations of Purity or the Negative Confession is a list of things to which a man must swear in order to enter the afterlife. Yes, they do include individual confessions but what they must do comes from the Egyptian code of ethics Principles of Ma'at I have stated... even if there were more of them or they "left behind" some of them out.

Many secular and religious archaeologist, anthropologists and historians have determined that the Ten Commandments came from these earlier document. These writings were around 1800BCE long before the Hebrew Scripture's purloined them and made up the myth about God giving "The Ten Commandments" to Moses (who never existed) on Mt. Sinai.

Once you put together all of the evidence (which you can't do) by reading the material then you can assemble on paper. The Israelites lived with the Canaanites in Ugarit where archaeologist, anthropologists and historians found the writings of the polytheistic pagan religion of Ugarit and it was obvious that the OT or Hebrew Scriptures came from them. I have read them and there are exact books in the OT that obviously came from these writings The Jewish people evolved from polytheism to monotheism with the promotion of a god who had been known by a variety of names, into one supreme God, Yahweh who had a consort, Asherah. Yes, God had a wife. This female entity was later merged by Greek and Roman traditions into Aphrodite and Venus, and known earlier to the Egyptians as Isis.

The story about the Golden Calf was transformed into the Bible's worshiping a Golden Calf story on Mount Sinai. The only god specifically called a Golden Calf by the ancient Egyptians in their writings is Pharaoh in the Old Kingdom Pyramid Texts. That information was found in letters from Canaanite princes addressed to Pharaoh Akhenaten. See! The Israelites lived with the Canaanites in Ugarit, which was ruled over by Egypt, and that is where the religion and stories came from.

Put it all together (which seems to be something you can't do) and you'll see (or most people see) along with the archaeologists and scholars that have found through research that there were never any Hebrew slaves in Egypt, no exodus or wandering the desert. The OT story claims Moses was given the law on Mt. Sinai and was ordered by God to bring the law down to his people is not true. It came from the Egyptians.

" even if there were more of them or they "left behind" some of them out. "

lol that'd be 96 they ' left out '

You only gave the whole story about your/their theory of the ten commandments after i said about the negative confessions , it would of looked totally ridiculas to do so beforehand yer ?

im out , next customer >>>>

im sure there's other that wish to comment ? oh hangon there isnt ...

The great delusion is here ...

From: John (Posted Jan 14, 2015 at 11:18 pm)

(John) " even if there were more of them or they "left behind" some of them out. "

(Linda) They also left out many of the Gods they took from the Canaanites but we know where there were many including Yahweh "one true god" and where He came from. The Jewish people evolved from polytheism to monotheism with the promotion of a god who had been known by a variety of names, into one supreme God, Yahweh who had a consort, Asherah.

The point is that the story in the Old Testament that claims MOSES was given the 'TEN COMMANDMENTS" on Mt. Sinai and was ordered by "GOD" to bring the law down to his people is not TRUE. It came from the Egyptians long before the so-called "MOSES" was ever dreamed up.

These writings were around 1800BCE long before the Hebrew Scripture's made up the myth about God giving "The Ten Commandments" to Moses (who never existed) on Mt. Sinai. The Ten Commandments were purloined from the Egyptian Principles of Ma'at written at least 2000 years earlier.

Archaeologist, anthropologists and historians have determined that the Ten Commandments came from these earlier document. However,

The Israelites lived with the Canaanites in Ugarit They found the writings of the polytheistic pagan religion of Ugarit and it was obvious that the OT or Hebrew Scriptures came from them. There are exact books in the OT that obviously came from these writings. But guess what there were a lot more of them too.

I'm sure the scientists would change their minds if they only knew as much about this as you do John? BAWHAAA! I hope the next customer can understand what they are reading and can spell simple words. It would be much easier - of course- unless they're so brainwashed that it doesn't matter anyway.

(John) "The Old Testament that supposedly came from Moses is probably based on the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten, who is also credited with creating monotheism. Sigmun Freud argued that Akhenaten was striving to promote monotheism, something that the biblical Moses was able to achieve." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten "

(Linda) What do you think wikipedia is? The real issue is where the Ten Commandments came from and the fact that Moses (one man) didn't write the first five books of the Bible in which Moses recounts his own funeral. Moses never existed. It's clear that the Israelites got the story from the Canaanites about the Pharaoh of Egypt Akhenaten. There were never any slaves wandering in the desert and the fictitious Moses never brought back the Ten Commandments and found his followers worshping a Golden Calf. First of all they were supposed to have been slaves fleeing a tyrant but they had golden jewelery to melt into a golden calf. A big fat lie. Akhenaten was called the Golden Calf. By the way - I wrote all of this since I can read stuff and then actually put two and two together.

(John) "As far as the exodus ? just because small temporary camps have not been found is neither here nor there ?"

(Linda) They wandered in the desert for 40 years. Don't you read this crap. Get off of wikipedia and look for a library.

(John) "Where are all the intermediate fossils missing from the fossil record that darwin assumed would be found ?"

(Linda) Ida is an incredibly well preserved lemur-like creature who died in a lake 47million years ago. Scientists claim she is an important 'missing link' in mankind's family tree and will shed light on a crucial part of evolution. The lemur's skeleton shows distinct physical characteristics of human beings, such as opposable thumbs - or hands that can grasp things he "inspired by God" Creation stories in Genesis are not compatible with science.

The reason apologists can't admit that there actually are transitional fossils is because it proves that the Genesis story is obvious bull shit. There are many transitional fossils, the primate-human transitional form, Australopithecus. A fossil named Ida (announced in May 2009) is an extraordinary find a perfectly preserved 47 million year old fossil found in Germany - a 'missing link' in human evolution. Eusthenopteron shows marvelous intermediate characteristics between the lobe-finned fishes and the amphibians. The transitional fossils between amphibians are so various and so intermediate that it is difficult to define where one group ends and the other begin. Archaeopteryx (most primitive bird known) is clearly intermediate between reptiles and birds. In spite of such reptilian affinities as a long bony tail, toothed jaws, and clawed wings, creationists declare that because Archaeopteryx had feathers, it was a bird, not a transitional stage between reptiles and birds. Having no explanations of their own, the creationists attempt to deny the transitional fossils out of existence. More fossils are discovered every year, and each one further weakens the creationists' position.

( Australopithecus ) ?? There is alot of ( IFS ) with this ' transitional ' fossil to me it looks like ape , but im no Scientist lol , but im sure like the other fossils that were assumed transitional then discarded this will be to , then your argument will be to discard it along with Scienctists and ' accept' the next ' fossil '

Look at the damn thing its a frikkin ape , that is the problem with Atheism and Science tell someone its black long enough eventually we are led to beleive the lie ...

I dont need to be a Scientist to know this is an APE ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecus

what a croc

AND Archaeopteryx

" Having no explanations of their own, the creationists attempt to deny the transitional fossils out of existence."

Thats the pot calling the kettle black ? That is excactly what evolution does , finds an APE skull and call it a transitional fossil , it is an extinct APE crossbread more than likely that you,s Atheists latch on to so that your warm and fuzzy in bed , dismissing a creator and responsibility ...

Piltdown man was an Evolutionary fraud and you LINDA would of staunchly supported that fraud also becuase science supported in for decades ? yes .

The Creation story hasnt changed Evolutionary theory has , what would happen if science finds unmistakable evidence of intelligence ? (oh they have ) Not that it would be made public ( there is an agenda with science ) and not all of it is truth ...

If Science sticks to honesty they will find Gods fingerprints , Antony flew did as have others . Proof of God lol , Australopithecus is not an intermidiate fossil its a stab in the dark of trying to make a circle fit a square hole and science trying to prove a fallacy , if that evidence was used as an attempt by creationists it would be rejected clearly .

Atheists and Science do not play by the rules of Science , cause and effect / observation / replicating experiments, replace one theory with another with another ....

One incredibly well preserved lemur-like creature would not normally be included as evidence for ' anything ' Science usually needs several ' Experiments " or outcomes for a hypothesis , Oh Except for Evolutuion ...

One odd specimen of APE is sufficient to JAM into the fossil record , web of lies is what it is

" Don't you read this crap. Get off of wikipedia and look for a library."

yer maybe read one of Antony flew's books before he changed his mind ?

Waste of my time here

Asta lavista deleting TAE out of Favourites eeek had enough ... And Answered my Questions with Bellitling and misinformation ...Thanks ...

bye ...

(Linda) Reply to: From: John (Posted Jan 13, 2015 at 10:58 pm)

(Linda) The Human Genome Project, completed over a decade ago, defined the sequence of the A, T, G and C building blocks of our three billion bases of DNA. From the Human Genome Project we learned that we have only have about 25,000 genes. All mammals have the same genes, but those genes will differ in exact base sequence from each other All mammals are very closely related. Comparative genomics have found that chimps and humans had a common ancestor about six million years ago. When they finished the chimpanzee genome in 2005 and lined it up next to the human genome, they made the amazing discovery that our DNA is almost 99 percent identical. All it takes to make a human, is a few changes in just the right places. There are about 15 million human-specific letters that have changed in the last six million years, since humans and chimps had a common ancestor.

There have been very few fakes in science and if you compared it to religious hoaxes it miniscule. People create hoaxes for many reasons. Like the Piltdown man one of the cases of fraud. But that was done because there were more fossil remains being found in continental Europe and in Asia and none in England. It wasn't because they couldn't find any evidence - unlike your Jesus. And it was done by an amateur archeologist who found these "ancient bones" that were later put together and called Piltdown man. Scientists pointed out that enough fragments of the skull and jawbone were missing that it was impossible to determine if they really fit together, and many specific details about the fossils, their age, and how they were found that are normally reported were omitted or unclear. However, the announcement of the discovery of a second skull in 1917 converted many skeptics. However, in the long run it was science that correct these kinds of hoaxes. Today it would be just about impossible to perpetrate this kind of fraud. It is also science that has exposed the huge number of Religious Hoaxes. I can't think of anything in religion that isn't a hoax. The Shroud of Turin does not date back to the time of Christ but instead 14 centuries later exactly when the forger confessed to making it. In the book "Relics of the Christ", states "the shroud on display in Turin is only one of over 40 such Jesus shrouds all claimed to be the real one." The Ossuary of James, Brother of Jesus supposed to be the burial box of Jesus brother James. Proven a big fat hoax. Peter Popoff the televangelist who god was speaking to was exposed a hoax by the Amazing Randi - this category could go on forever. I don't really have the time or the paper to continue. But suffice to say most of this hasn't changed a thing in Christendom.

This is the very best hoax of all but considering the lack of religious investigative interest you have displayed, it might be of some interest to other people who do look for actual fact based sources. For example the letters of Pilate - W. P. Crozier's 1928 book titled, "Letters of Pontius Pilate: Written During His Governorship of Judea to His Friend Seneca in Rome" The book cites Crozier as the editor (like he represented a scholar who edited Pilate's letters) from the title, it certainly seems to indicate that Pilate wrote some letters. But, completely ignored by the un-skeptical fanatic, the book is a novel, a fictionalized account of what W. P. Crozier thought Pilate would have written.He wrote this novel as if it represented the actual letters of Pilate. Of course no scholar would cite this as evidence because no letters exist of Pilate to Seneca, and Seneca never mentions Jesus in any of his writings.

On Anthony Flew's conversion or the senility argument! Read: Richard Carrier Blogs: Antony Flew's Bogus Book richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2007/11/antony-flew-bogus-book.html

Mark Oppenheimer, a journalist with the New York Times (see "The Turning of an Atheist," New York Times Magazine, 4 November 2007, pp ... "that Flew's failing memory is what I would call clinically serious"

(John) "Asta lavista deleting TAE out of Favourites eeek had enough ... And Answered my Questions with Bellitling and misinformation ...Thanks ... bye ..."

(Linda) Everyone knows the reason the TAE is a favorite of Creationists and fundamentalists. I'm not belittling you, you are belittling yourself (you can't even spell it) and you are the one with the misinformation. .... I'm sure you don't want to stick around for any more answers like this one.

So, Bye, Bye!

"that Flew's failing memory is what I would call clinically serious" pfft

oh of course .

btw i type to fast on sites i care not much for , if you can only attack someone for spelling that says volumes about you :-) , serious ...

(John) btw i type to fast on sites i care not much for , if you can only attack someone for spelling that says volumes about you :-) , serious ...

(Linda) That should be "I type too fast", what says volumes about you is, apparently you don't know when to use the word to or too, and you have consistently used it wrong. Seriously! But I'm sure whenever you're speaking to Bubba and Bocephus you use the Kings English.

It's interesting though, I mean when you think about it, since the ability to write coherently is important when you are trying to discredit people and their information. Didn't you think someone just might comment on your inability to communicate or debate? After all you're trying to convince people that I'm all wet.

However, I've been able to decipher enough of your drivel to know that you can only recite the usual excuses but you can't give any actual information when it's challenged. You haven't given us any fact based argument in defense. Your answers are foolish and your writing skills are non-existent.

While representing your "thoughts" feel free to make all the mistakes you care to, but I'm not glorifying your barely literate remarks when we are giving you actual fact based answers. These non-answer (answers) of yours should be deleted! Clearly you don't have a rebuttal. I don't care to spend time on someone who refuses to learn anything, and that's the end of this.

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