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Question: What's a Relationship with God?

I was a Christian 'till I was eighteen. I even went to Casey Treat's Christian Faith Center for five years when they took over my church, All Nations Christian Center. I don't think I've once been presented with a sermon or very definition of what a relationship with God is.

I believe that's where you get down on your knees and be subservient to the invisible Lord. Don't worry, your minister will guide you.

Pass the collection plate. It's time for the lambs to be fleeced.

For most of my Christian walk I never got to hear God. I really wanted to. Maybe that's one of the reasons why it was easy to depart from my faith, an unfulfilled relationship. People talk to God but only those that think that God talks to them would have a relationship WITH God, otherwise it's a relationship to God. I think the brain processes information differently between recieving information (hearing your thoughts) and doing information (thinking). I both hear my thoughts and see my face like there is a mirror to my mind and I can see where people say they hear God. This different thinking process makes it seem like another person is speaking to you, but if you remember what your last thought was, you'd see it was all in your head. If one doesn't remember their last thought to see if it was them or not and doesn't know that it IS them then they think that it is a response to another one of their thoughts that they have moved onto after the time it took to hear one's own thought.

Woah, I meant to say for most of my Christian walk I wanted to hear God, because I never actually did.

What is having a relationship with god, yet, another interesting question that every atheist can answer. I'm so glad you ask an atheist so that you can get a really good answer. If they can't answer it maybe you could give them some hints. They might say there is no god, you're making up ship. You could tell them that nobody knows anything about the author. Make them write repentances. Tell them that the elements are encoded in Genesis. Did I mention it's when you smell like dog poop?

I bet you can find some fu*ckup who doesn't have the answer to that incredibly stupid question to use your Christian education and intelligence on. Atheists are morons who were probably the first ones to become followers of a wimp like Ted Haggard. What was I saying …ah, a relationship with the god, easy just keep talking to yourself.

It's amazing that a Christian like you, Dung, is so against a relationship with God, which is the foundation of the Christian faith and no one knows what it means.

Devin said, "For most of my Christian walk I never got to hear God. I really wanted to. Maybe that's one of the reasons why it was easy to depart from my faith, an unfulfilled relationship." I tried talking to God in my childhood as well, and I never got an audible response (which is actually a good thing, because the only reason anyone hears an audible voice besides their own is mental illness). Christianity has an excuse for this, though-you are not worthy of hearing god, god hasn't got to prove anything to the likes of you, etc. I think if there is a being that wants to be worshipped and revered (and paid part of my earnings) the least he could do is say "hello." Think about it-if you had a child, would you expect them to go around looking for you in the dark and you say nothing, then you expect them to love and honor you? Devin said, "People talk to God but only those that think that God talks to them would have a relationship WITH God, otherwise it's a relationship to God." But there are people who think all kinds of strange things (like that they have a personal relationship with Matt Lauer or Paul McCartney) but their belief doesn't make it so.

Mental illnesses are ideas based on lies, known as delusions. Having audible halucinations besides your own voice is a misunderstandment, not a genetic disease. For music is a voice other than one's own. Then you can see that everyone hears things. Some people just get confused and make up lies like ghosts or personal gods or have delusions of hearing those ghosts or personal gods based on those lies that were made like religion. It's a circle of life. Schizophrenia has survived through evolution because it is the artistic or creative gene, http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17474-artistic-tendencies-linked-to-schizophrenia-gene.html

a relationship with god is done in many ways such as reading the bible and i have heard gods voice but i also have thought i heard gods voice its just that it was me. the way you communicate is not through your mind but through your spirit when you feel it is god speaking to you. you have to ask your spirit if thats really him and then you will know if its him. i have ministered before to people and words have just gone through my kind and with out even knowing what i said i said something that changed that persons life and they were going through what i said have helped drug attics stop being drug attics by just listening to god. so unless those are all coisidence i have heard gods voice and if you havent its not because god doesnt want to talk to you its because your not really seeking him.

Jonathan, There is the danger in telling people they are cured when they should be seeking a professional and not acting on anything they have been told by a faith healer. Drug use can be responsible for an increased risk of schizophrenia. Only qualified professionals can make a diagnosis and recommend a treatment for any serious medical condition. You left out one of the major requirements of some faith healers. You have to sow a seed to see it happen, and you may want to call your seed in today with our 800 number that is on your screen. Faith healers and televangelists have been publicly exposed as fraud. To name one, Peter Popoff, it was discovered that the apparent healing miracles and prophetic acts performed by him were in fact part of an elaborately stage-managed setup including planting of audience members and broadcasts to an in-ear radio receiver. There have been many others exposed as frauds but I can't write a book here. And don't tell me they are not all like that; it's crap.

There is no reason to believe that faith healing has ever cured anyone of an organic disease, but there is plenty of proof of fraud involving faith healing. There is no scientific evidence that proves healing can prevent or cure cancer, or any other disease. Faith healing has not been proven effective. What few controlled studies have been performed have evidenced no beneficial effect. Its practitioners can only cite anecdotal evidence while ignoring the far more numerous cases where the patient dies despite the efforts of faith healing. Studies have shown faith healing is no more effective than a placebo. Preachers promising miracle cures from ailments ranging from AIDS to blindness have become increasingly popular in recent years in Kenya, a country where health care is out of the reach of many ordinary people and living standards have been gradually falling for years. So sad, and immoral, when we need doctors and medicine not faith healers.

I do care about your remarks that indicate that you are superior morally to those who are not being duped. I want to be told the truth. People following a righteous path are not the problem. Liars are not moral nor are people who lie in order to prove their beliefs and think that it is o.k. That's a hypocrite, and a fraud. There has been more than one famous minister, who was a mouthpiece for the fanatics and was judging everyone else's moral failings, that were caught doing extremely immoral things. You can post your self-righteous bullshit all you want to, but you are not the one on the moral high ground. If you value faith over doubt that's your business, but atheists don't. I do not believe that anyone should accept something as a "truth" without subjecting it to multiple layers of scrutiny, investigation, inquiry and skepticism. That is what separates us from you not your moral superiority. Or the fact that you are just sitting there waiting on god's voice and you can't write a decent paragraph.

I think it is immoral to put a person in need of professional care in the hands of ignorant faith healers. This is what people did in ancient times because there was no healthcare. We are all free to go and get shitty advice from idiots and lap it up. But if there are those who will not turn a blind eye to the fact that it is shitty advice and you don't like that; tough tacos. The problem is that finding what is true knowledge is hard. It requires thinking, learning, integrating new knowledge with your existing knowledge, and forming sound conclusions. Frankly, I think you and others like you are incapable of doing that.

There is no more reason for self-righteous smug moral superiority derived from nothing more than a submission to brainwashing, than there is for finding out the facts. However, if I am telling someone these are the facts, and I haven't looked for the facts except in one book someone might consider that very immoral. Immoral is in the eye of the beholder. If a preacher, who knows that he is gay, continuously rails out about how immoral it is to be gay, he is a liar. If a faith healer tells people with AIDS that they have been healed until he is exposed and stopped, I say that's clearly immoral. If a preacher murders his entire family, that's a moral dilemma. The most infamous unresolved case from America's civil rights struggle four decades ago - in Mississippi. Mr. Killen, a 79-year-old preacher who, investigators say, organized and led two carloads of Klansmen on the night of the killings, and was charged with the murders of Michael Schwerner, Andrew Goodman and James Chaney. To say nothing about the criminal remark that America should assassinate Venezuelan President, Hugo Chavez made by one of the biggest phonies to ever come down the crazy fanatic pike. There is no more likelihood that a person professing a religion is not a dangerous criminal than anyone else; I'd say it's more likely. Billions of people believe it is a gospel truth that there is one god and that it's always been that way. They don't think it is immoral to write off what is inconvenient and accept the rest of the bible as the truth. Your one and only book, but no educated person would believe the genesis infamous beginnings of the universe and creation of man. With a bit of science and common sense, smart people can see that creation week is just nonsense. No evidence exists for any god. Not one shred. If there is one true god so why overlook passages that refer to other gods. In the Old Testament, there are 34 instances of gods in the plural sense. In the New Testament, there are 2. How do we know he is the "one" that is true? Oh well, it's because he doesn't exist. Ok, never mind. Genesis 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image.

The Ten Commandments originated in ancient Egyptian religion (chapter 125 of the Egyptian Book of the Dead.) The story of Moses receiving them on Mt. Sinai is false they were around long before that time. Tutankamun's or Tutankhamen, birth name "Tutankh-aten "therefore means" the living image of the Lord. He was recognized from the time of his birth as the Son of God, "the eldest Son of Aten (the Lord) in heaven". Tutankamun or Tutankhamen also known as the Egyptian Messiah/Christ/Karast. He was hung on a tree. Like Jesus (the God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree."- Acts - 5.30.) King Tut was called the same thing. The life and death of the young Pharaoh Tutankhamun or Tutankhamen was decidedly "Messianic." The literal meaning of the name Tutankhamun or Tutankhamen is "Living Image of the Lord (Tut -meaning likeness or image; Ankh - meaning life and symbolized by a cross; and Amun - the god Amun (see Isaiah 65:16) But no one is like god (Isaiah 44:77.)

"Messeh" was the word for crocodile in ancient Egypt. The image of two crocodiles formed the title of the king, which were given to him, at the time of his Coronation. The letter "s" in Egyptian is equivalent to "sh" in Hebrew and Aramaic. It is therefore evident that the Biblical word Messiah originated from "mesheeh", the ancient Egyptian word signifying the ritual of anointing the Pharaoh. The word "Essa" is the Arabic name of Jesus scholars tell us that the last writings of the Dead Sea Scrolls people, known as the Essenes, was no later than 70 B.C.E. That means that if this "Jesus" was to be a historical person then he had to be a historical person that lived before 70 B.C.E. and this rules out any possibility that this "Jesus" could be the Jesus of the New Testament.

The Talmud Rabbis speak of an "anointed" Messiah and Son of God. Talmudic Rabbis state that this messiah is "Ben Pandira" which is an Egyptian royal term for "Son of God" again. It appears that we are speaking about a historical "Son of God" who was believed to be the "image of the living Lord" and that lived long before the New Testament times and the Roman depiction of this "Jesus"; an anointed Messiah of Egypt who was killed and believed to have resurrected and returned in some form. Jesus the Amen (Revelations 3:14.)

Revelations 3:14 this term is used as a "definitive article" that describes a deity of which in the case of Revelations 3:14 as a title for Jesus (Iesous). Using the definitive article directly traces the word Amen back to Ancient Egypt where Amen was used as a noun and/or a descriptive pronoun (Tut-Ankh-Amen). Using Amen as a title is found in a plethora of other sections of both the Old and New Testament. The Egyptian god Amun, "the Hidden One"- the sun in the belly of the Mother before sunrise. Its hieroglyphic symbol meant pregnant belly." (Book of the Dead) rooted in the culture of Ancient Kemet (Egypt) deity of the same name.

This bible lesson came to you from finding out the facts, the study of ancient history and the roots of the bible. It's very enlightening. You can believe that you are moral and ignore all the facts because you want to be a faith healer, and that's a good reason not to look for the facts. You just read the bible. Frankly, people like you have things turned around. It's people who look for the truth and are brave enough to tell it that are righteous and moral.

linda

im not gonna argue you with you so im gonna leave at that the man wanted an answer so i gave it to him if he chooses to use it then okay if he doesnt then thats his problem

Jonathan, they would have thought alternatives to what they did and that's all that happened.

jonathan,

It could be a critical obstacle if a person with a serious illness delays or does not seek processional help because they went to a faith healer, who may have told them that they were healed, when in fact they were not. They should be seeing a doctor and not a faith healer, because "faith healing" is a waste of time and money, and if someone is told they were healed there is no guarantee that they will see a doctor. That's why "faith healing" could have serious consequences, and this kind of fraud is well documented.

These fakes have been exposed many times as frauds that prey on the sick and desperate people all for the sake of making huge money. Their greed, lies and hypocrisy are revolting. Very qualified professionals have exposed the horrific abuse of faith healers, and they have written books about "faith healing".

William Nolen, M.D. Minnesota surgeon attended a service conducted by Katherine Kuhlman in the early 1970s, the prominent evangelical healer of that time. He got the names of 25 people who had been "miraculously healed," and he was able to perform follow-up interviews and examinations. Among other things, he discovered that one woman who had been announced as cured of "lung cancer" actually had Hodgkin's disease, which was unaffected by the experience. Another woman with cancer of the spine had discarded her brace and followed Ms. Kuhlman's vigorous command to run across the stage. The following day her backbone collapsed and four months later she died. Overall, not one person with organic disease had been helped. Dr. Nolen reported his findings, which included observations of several other healers, in his book 'Healing: A Doctor in Search of a Miracle', a book that I recommend you read.

Faith healing is a racket put on by con artists that do not care about anything ethical or moral. They prey on people who are sick and desperate because of their own greed. So far there is no proof of faith healing ever having cured any organic disease, but there is plenty of proof that modern medicine works. People have a brain that was evolved to be used to reason and pursue reliable forms of treatment. We have developed a vast amount of knowledge through science about disease and how to cure it, but mystics and faith healers have done nothing to eliminate sickness or cure any disease. About all the faith healers have ever done is to spread ignorance, such as, illness is the wrath of god. Faith healers have nothing to offer anyone. People who need medical treatment should seek the advice of a professional who has studied medicine.

The most comprehensive examination of contemporary "faith healers" is James Randi's 'The Faith Healers.' The book describes how many of the leading evangelistic healers have enriched themselves with the help of deception and fraud. Some of Randi's evidence came from former associates of the evangelists who got disgusted with what they had observed.

linda

yes some peole are like that. thay make up lies. but what about the people that have had problems and the next day they arent like that any more all because some prayed for them. how do you explain that.

Jonathan,

Studies say that nobody has ever been cured of an organic disease. I say they didn't have one. If you're talking spiritual, we have all seen a lot of real fakers and hypochondriac. I wrote you about the Dr. who reported on one of the most famous faith healers of all time. He said that "one woman who had been announced as cured of "lung cancer" actually had Hodgkin's disease, which was unaffected by the experience."

What you can see from that is that some people become delusional about being healed. This woman thought she was healed of a disease she didn't even have. The disease she did have was not affected. But don't you think she was wasting her time and efforts there instead of seeing a doctor. Hodgkin's disease is a very serious disease, and it was lucky for her that the Dr. happen to be at that crusade doing a study because he is the one who told her what she really had.

"Another woman with cancer of the spine had discarded her brace and followed Ms. Kuhlman's vigorous command to run across the stage. The following day her backbone collapsed and four months later she died."

As you can see this woman didn't need to be walking let alone running. This is shitty advice. It takes a very long time to become a doctor but they really can help people instead of lying to them. And some of those people are lying to themselves and other people. Especially drug addicts.

Addicts don't get cured that way, but they prefer it to real treatment, since they can't use drugs in a treatment program. They also need counseling and medication prescribed by a professional.

St. Jude Children's Research Hospital is internationally recognized for its pioneering work in finding cures and saving children with cancer and other catastrophic diseases. St. Jude is the first and only pediatric cancer center to be designated as a Comprehensive Cancer Center by the National Cancer Institute. Danny Thomas founded, and it is based in Memphis, Tenn., St. Jude freely shares its discoveries with scientific and medical communities around the world. St. Jude is the only pediatric cancer research center where families never pay for treatment not covered by insurance. No child is ever denied treatment because of the family's inability to pay. St. Jude is financially supported by ALSAC, its fundraising organization.

This is an ethical way to help very sick children, if that is what someone wants to do. I am sure something like this would make a person feel good about what they are doing, and I do send them money at Christmas. Everyone should send money to these kinds of organizations that really do help people, instead of exploiting their misfortunes.

Why don't you just get a good education and become a doctor. I heard a man this morning saying that America is in desperate need of doctors. You don't seem like a bad person, but you really need to think for yourself, and find your own answers. Make your own decisions.

linda please show me your proof because you are making this stuff up but have not showed me where i can find them.

If someone were making anything up it would have to be the authors of the books and the reports. I gave you two books and two names of the people who did the studies in my post; so why would you say I'm making anything up. Are you sure you are reading my posts? And there is a great deal more documented information than I put on the posts. I don't make things up and neither did they; these are facts. I don't put things up that have no reports or any corroborating information. I am a stickler for details like most atheists, and I believe that if someone can't prove what they are saying then that person does not have a provable point.

DR. NOLEN reported his findings, which included observations of several other healers, in his book 'HEALING A DOCTOR IN SEARCH OF A MIRACLE', A BOOK THAT I RECOMMEND YOU READ.

The most comprehensive examination of contemporary "faith healers" is JAMES RANDI'S 'THE FAITH HEALERS.' The book describes how many of the leading evangelistic healers have enriched themselves with the help of deception and fraud. Some of Randi's evidence came from former associates of THE EVANGELISTS WHO GOT DISGUSTED WITH WHAT THEY HAD OBSERVED.

Peter Popoff was one such notorious faith healer. He was fed information via a radio receiver from his wife, who in turn obtained the information from confederates scattered throughout the audience. Popoff's fraud was exposed on the TONIGHT SHOW with JOHNNY CARSON BY FAITH-HEALING EXPERT JAMES RANDI.

THOSE WERE ALREADY IN MY POSTS. HERE ARE SOME MORE THINGS.

DR. SETH ASSER visited the headstones marking children's graves in a small cemetery in Oregon, he knew many of these early deaths should not have happened. The children's parents relied on faith healing, instead of doctors.In a 1998 study published in the MEDICAL JOURNAL PEDIATRICS, Asser and Swan, a Scientist documented 172 faith-related child deaths in the United States between 1975 and 1995. They found that 140 of the children died from conditions for which survival rates with medical care exceeded 90 percent.

There were two criminal cases in Oregon against parents who relied on faith healing.

In those two cases the parents were charged with failing to provide adequate medical care, in violation of their duties as parents. One was a 16-year-old boy, who died from complications of a urinary-tract blockage that triggered heart failure. Doctors said a simple procedure could have saved his life. In the other Oregon case, charges of manslaughter and criminal mistreatment in the death of a 15-month-old daughter, who died at home from bacterial pneumonia and a blood infection, conditions the state medical examiner said were treatable.

These cases were on the news and in nationally known newspapers all over the country. There is a case in Wisconsin about an 11 year old girl with diabetes that didn't get medical treatment because the parents relied on prayer for her healing and she died while they prayed. This has been in the news and in all of the leading newspapers.

LOUIS ROSE, A BRITISH PSYCHIATRIST, investigated hundreds of alleged faith-healing cures. As his interest became well known, he received communications from healers and patients throughout the world. He sent each correspondent a questionnaire and sought corroborating information from physicians. In Faith Healing [Penguin Books 1971], he concluded, "I have been unsuccessful. After nearly twenty years of work I have yet to find one 'miracle cure'; and without that (or, alternatively, massive statistics which others must provide) I cannot be convinced of the efficacy of what is commonly termed faith healing."

If you have a problem with these reports made by professionals, investigators, scientists and doctors then you need to argue with them. I gave you the names of doctors who did studies, as well as, the reports in medical journals and books. I gave you nationally known stories that were own tv with film footage. I do not throw up trash that has no support. If someone tells me that something happened I expect them to prove it. I don't see any of that kind of proof in anything that you are saying, and like someone else recently told you, I don't think that anyone can have a productive discussion without honesty. I gave you the names, books and reports. So, I am not going to continue the discussion.

linda

by this post i can see that you dislike christians because you think they are terrible people. but let me ask you a question have you ever seen an atheist hospital or an orginization that goes to africa and helps kids that are in africa. i havent but if you have then please tell me. but what i have seen is christian hospitals and christian orginizations that help kids in africa. so then why do you talk so much garbage about christians when atheist are the ones that are upsest with there belief and so selfish that instead of helping somebody they try to deprave of somebody getting helped by trying to destroy christianity. why would you want to destroy somebody's belief all because they dont agree with you and not only that but deprave of somebody getting helped. you call us terrible people. but i believe you are the one that is terrible. somebody is happy because they think that when they die they will go to heaven but instead of encouraging them and just leaving them alone,you go and start arguments. atheism was always based on letting people believe what they wanna believe but instead you turn people away and try to believe in your foolish ways. not only that have you seen who is one of the faces of atheism its a lady named madalyn murray o'hair. she was known has one of the most hated women in the u.s when she was alive. she stole, lied, and cursed her own son. atleast are christian face is a person that we believe that was perfect and a nice person not one that was evil like madalyn murray o'hair. his name is jesus. so please turn to him because he does love you and he wants you to be with him. god bless

Jonathan,

I've responded to much of this before. Trust me that you're only showing that you're willfully ignorant by ignoring the responses and re-posing the question. Did you know that missionaries have actually killed more people then they've "saved" because of the diseases they've brought to otherwise isolated tribes? How is that helping, exactly? I've already explained how James Dobson and Franklin Graham engineered the deaths of thousands of Africans by sabotaging AIDS relief programs there. How is that good? Because they did it out of a love for Jesus?

Since you're pretty convinced that only your sect is true Christians, why don't you provide us some information on how many hospitals your sect has built. We wouldn't want you counting any Catholic hospitals since you're pretty convinced that Catholics aren't Christians. Please educate us and list a few.

Let's say that some Christians have built a hospital. I can only imagine that they'd do it for marketing purposes. Certainly, you're trying to get a lot of mileage out of it.

I've explained already that when atheists do charity, we do it without strings attached. Christians do it as a means to get their little souls to heaven. In reality, they're just using the people they claim to help.

Did you know that Christianity has actively suppressed medical research? In the past, they've actively persecuted people who studied corpses for medical reasons. They promoted the idea that mental illness is daemon possession. More recently, Christian groups have actively sabotaged the teaching of biology (especially evolution). Prohibitions against stem cell research are almost universally religious-based. The point here is that if Christians created a hospital, they have not gone very far toward offsetting the harm they've done.

Now I really doubt that Christians feel that hospitals are the means of helping people recover from illness. Why do I say that? Because the Bible that you claim is true says that if two or more believers come together to pray in Jesus name, that nothing will be impossible. Look up Matthew 7:7, 17:20, 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19, and James 5:15-16. The Bible is very clear. There can be no true believers in hospitals. All of the tools to heal people are in the hands of Christians. They can heal everyone who's ill at their churches. Now, since you are such a strong Christian, perhaps you can explain to me why there are Christian churches at all. They would seem to be a waste of money.

So either Christians don't believe in Jesus, in which case they're going to hell, or they just all know Jesus is a liar. Which is it? Have you ever been to a doctor or hospital? Don't you believe the Bible and what Jesus says? If you don't, then why should we?

As for why we would want to destroy false beliefs is simply because they cause harm. I care more about real humans than fantasies. Preventing harm is doing good.

YOU came to THIS forum and started arguments (actually, you were spewing bullshit). You generally won't find atheists in churches. We think they're a complete waste of time.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair didn't steal or lie. She was hated because Christians have always persecuted atheists. Look up Giodorno Bruno. She and her son were estranged. So what? I think you're doing a good job of lying. See http://www.celebatheists.com/ for a list of thousands of other atheists. Can you make up lies about all of them? Oh, we don't exist, according to you.

Please don't pretend that you haven't had your questions answered.

don

i have studied madalyn murray o'hair. and her son and she did lie and steal. and if you read her biography then you know she did. but appearently you didnt.

miami christian hospital. there is one hospital that christians have made. and then by saying the only reason why christians are opening a hospital is to get miliage is very judgemantal and dumb.

i have already answered to atheist wanting to do something good. most of them dont do anything good. because there usually trying to argue with christians and trying to destroy a good thing.

yes most mentally sick people are demon possessed. but not all of them. why would people want to kill themselves. that is part of one of are beliefs. as for stem cell research and the teaching of biology especially evolution is something that we dont agree with so of ourse we are gonna fight it. the same way atheist fought prayer in school all because you dont agree with it. why should it be wrong for us to fight stem cell research and the teaching of biology but it be okay for you to take away prayer from schools?

you are qouting the bible wrong. it sais when 2 or more are gathered he is in the midst of them. you deffinetly know the bible. and mathew 7:7 has nothing to do with what you are saying about hospitals. mathew 17:20 is saying if you have then anything can happen. but many people dont have to much faith thats why it doesnt happen. but it does say in the bible to be wise and even though you do miracles you still have to be wise and one of the wise things is to go to a hospital. sometimes many people get there miracle by a hospital it doesnt always have to be a christian.

Please don't pretend that you haven't had your questions answered.

god bless

Jonathan,

Jonathan said, "i have studied madalyn murray o'hair. and her son and she did lie and steal. and if you read her biography then you know she did. but appearently you didnt."

"Woe to you when men speak well of you, for so did their fathers to the false prophets."

What is the title of the book and who is the author. An unauthorized Biography could be written by anyone, and could contain totally false information. I know what you are saying is false. Even her born again son Bill Murray said his mother didn't steal any money. I can tell you that the investigation into the killing of the O' Hair family has been put out in writing. It clearly states that the Christian killer made the story up that she took money as a cover-up for the fact that he had killed her and he took money. He used his I'm a Christian wanting to kill off an atheist story to keep from getting the death penalty. So, he was an ex-con Christian, and you don't have a point. Since Madalyn Murray O' Hair was murdered by a lying thieving Christina ex-con. Did the Biographer point out that Madalyn Murray O' Hair had never murdered anyone. God says, "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13).

Jonathan said, "miami christian hospital. there is one hospital that christians have made. and then by saying the only reason why christians are opening a hospital is to get miliage is very judgemantal and dumb."

Faith-based initiative is a political bribe to the religious right and is a violation of the First Amendment. Every study shows that there has been nothing but dismal results for the faith based initiative. Millions wasted, many lawsuits, embarrassments Obama getting rid of federal handouts to churches for social services would be one change we'd all be ready to believe in. Ponzi scheme that made $8 billion disappear. Incredibly, the company's Southern Christian leaders were big hypocritical frauds"! All done under the cloak of moral superiority! This is just one story there are many more, and they involve charities. I don't think anyone needs to be pushing fake Xian morality on people who probably have a greater since of what morality is than any of the Christian crooks and liars pushing their values on our Nation!

Jonathan said, i have already answered to atheist wanting to do something good. most of them dont do anything good. because there usually trying to argue with christians and trying to destroy a good thing.

HERE ARE SOME GOOD THINGS CHRISTIANS HAVE DONE:

The Baptist Foundation of Arizona, a subsidiary of the Southern Baptist Convention used Southern Baptist pastors and former pastors as sales representatives to rob 13,000 mostly elderly Christians by promising high returns, the security of church backing, and the chance to help Baptist charities. It was nothing but a fraud and a big Ponzi Scheme. A good thing though, because those stupid sheep needed sheering. The Bible teaches that those who are Christ's will be hated by the world (1 John 3:13; now let's see, the world hated Madalyn Murray O' Hair. She never pretended to be holy, she told them the truth, so, why would they like her?

Grace Community Church, Southern Baptist Convention, in Auburn, Washington-which counted Ned Graham, his wife, and their two sons as members established in 1999 the fact that Ned Graham was an adulterer, alcoholic, wife abuser, and drug user and revoked Graham's ministerial credentials. It directed Graham to stop using the title reverend. Yet in a style reminiscent of Jimmy Swaggart, who refused to be defrocked by the Assembly of God denomination, Ned Graham left that congregation for another church.

Graham is of the world and is "beloved and respected." Jesus said to his disciples, If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. (John 15:19) He is not hated by the world, but he is "beloved and respected" by the world. This alone is a mark of a false teacher. As Luke 6:26 says.

Tony Alamo, a one-time street preacher who built a multimillion-dollar ministry, was convicted Friday of taking girls as young as 9 across state lines for sex. Alamo stood silently as the verdict was read. His five victims sat looking forward in the gallery. "I'm just another one of the prophets that went to jail for the Gospel," Alamo called to reporters afterward as he was escorted to a waiting U.S. marshal's vehicle. Take a look at jerks like Ted Haggard or Ralph Reed!

Jonathan said, "yes most mentally sick people are demon possessed. but not all of them. why would people want to kill themselves. that is part of one of are beliefs.

I don't know of any atheist who believes in killing themselves or anyone else, and it doesn't take god to stop them. Actually god didn't stop some of the Christians.

Crazy people sometimes do have a hard time separating fantasy from reality, and some of them are just liars.

Andrea Yates' murder convictions for drowning her 5 children in a bathtub in June 2001. Andrea Yates, a devout Christian home schooler, and the only reason she didn't get the death penalty is the plea that she was insane. This little case of tub-a-side means that Christians can be really crazy.

The Son of Sam psychopath turned (prison minister) prison letters that were written to serial killer Gary Evans makes a mockery out of David Berkowitz's supposed embrace of Christianity.

Jonathan said, "as for stem cell research and the teaching of biology especially evolution is something that we dont agree with so of ourse we are gonna fight it." the same way atheist fought prayer in school all because you dont agree with it. why should it be wrong for us to fight stem cell research and the teaching of biology but it be okay for you to take away prayer from schools?"

Don't you mean evolution not biology? I mean, I know that these people are flat out stupid, but biology?

Jonathan said, "you are qouting the bible wrong. it sais when 2 or more are gathered he is in the midst of them. you deffinetly know the bible. and mathew 7:7 has nothing to do with what you are saying about hospitals. mathew 17:20 is saying if you have then anything can happen. but many people dont have to much faith thats why it doesnt happen.

You must be talking to Don. I gave you the investigations of Doctors and Scientists that stated many children's lives could have been saved that died because of ignorant faith healers. But I have added some nifty Bible saying to this post because I can see how much you know about the Bible. You told Don that the Catholic Church wasn't Christian. You don't know that the Catholic Church was the first Christian Church established in Rome. Every Christian sect came from it. They consider St. Peter the first Pope. My ancestors were Irish Catholics and I know, but it is a fact that even poorly informed people know.

Jonathan said, "but it does say in the bible to be wise and even though you do miracles you still have to be wise and one of the wise things is to go to a hospital. sometimes many people get there miracle by a hospital it doesnt always have to be a christian. Please don't pretend that you haven't had your questions answered. god bless"

There have been many children and others who have died because of faith healers. There are criminal court cases to prove it because they were not taken to a hospital. Also, a faith healer couldn't cure a hangnail according to every scientific study. So get off your soapbox. They are rotten sumbag thieving trash.

Billy Graham is not hated by the world, but rather, by the admission of his own book, he is "beloved and respected" by the world, and "Hailed as the world's preacher." Luke 6:26 says this alone is a mark of a false teacher. Billy Graham never spoke out against the illegal War in Vietnam, he kowtowed to Johnson and Richard Nixon. That war cost millions of lives in South East Asia, and over 50 thousand of American lives. There were many people like John Lennon, the atheist, who did speak out, and he was murdered. To apply reason and logic to explain the world rather than superstition is not immoral, and neither is using coherent judgment instead of religious bigotry, or hysterical madness to solve the unsolved. There is something immoral about abandoning your own judgment".

You have gave us unsubstantiated rumor mill crap that you always post. You have not answered anything with facts.

Jonathan,

You don't get it. Why are Christians building hospitals when they can just pray and cure people? The answer is that they KNOW they can't. "Nothing fails like prayer," is a popular phrase among atheists. Christians own actions prove that they know Jesus is a liar in the Bible. If one part of the Bible contradicts the other part, as you have said, then the Bible is obviously not a reliable source of knowledge. By the way, I listed about a dozen verses. Each one emphasizes my point.

By building a hospital, Christians are admitting that their "savior" has the sin of false witness (or the Bible is false). Either way, Christian hospitals prove that Christianity is a fraud. You are providing evidence that you're belief in perpetual orgasm is just fantasy!

If you disagree, then please let me know what diseases have been cured by prayer. I honestly can't think of any technology whatsoever that has been created by religion, except for torture devices that they used on non-believers.

Why do you suppose that your god created smallpox? Were you aware that science has nearly eradicated it from the surface of the earth? Scientists are clearly more powerful than your god.

I'm not at all surprised you think that mentally ill people are demon possessed. It gives me a lot of insight into Christian medicine. Perhaps Christian witch doctors who can't earn their real doctors' degrees practice at Christian hospitals. You won't find me in one.

Where were you going with the Christian hospital thing anyway? Were you trying to make a point that Christianity is so great that they've built hospitals. I assume you know the Nazi's built hospitals, too. Does that erase the Holocaust according to Christian morality? It's my understanding that the Nazi's brought their "civilization" and "help" to Africa, as well. That was your other example of how great Christianity is, as I recall.

As for prayer in school, nobody is stopping you from praying. It's a lie that prayer has somehow been removed from schools. What has happened is that the government was barred from promoting specific religious beliefs or practices. The issue was teachers or other government employees using their offices in promoting of religious practices. Christians wanted to cram their prayers down others' throats. With evolution, you're welcome to be as ignorant of reality as you want. In the teaching of science, only validated scientific principles and facts are taught. Christians are again trying to cram their religion down everyone's throats by pushing Creationism, Creation "Science", or "Intelligent Design", which have no scientific basis, in schools. These things are religion dressed up in a lab coat. If Christians want it taught, they should find some evidence for it.

don

if you read the bible then you would know not be dumb but be wise. god is not always gonna heal you miracually. when you said matthew 7:7 they are talking about aking seeking and knocking. knocking is another word for action. so you have to take action if you want miracuosally something to happen. and what about the people that arent christians that go to christian hospitals. they dont believe in what we believe. so if we go to try to heal them miracuosaly and they have no faith god isnt gonna heal them. so we make hospitals for everybody. its not our fault that you atheist are so evil they dont make hospitals for people even though supposably they care about people. and there is a man named john g. lake he healed 1000 people in spokane. here is the website. http://www.enterhisrest.org/charismata/lake_biography.pdfed

the bible explains why diseases kills us. im talking about small pox. adam was a perfect man. but he commited a sin when they ate the fruit. if adam would have never had sin then we would not die. but since he ate it we were bound to sin. so things were aloud to kill us. god didnt create small pox we did.

where i was going with the christian hospitals is that atheist are always judging us on how evil we are when you dont want to help anybody. and so what if the nazi's created hospitals. what are you trying to say with that? where are you going with that? and just because nazi's created hospitals doesnt mean people that create hospitals are evil. so what now because of that we shouldnt go to anymore hospitals because nazi's created hospitals.

yes and people are stopping prayer before they took prayer out of schools they use to say a prayer on the speakers.

So God answers all prayers, except when he doesn't, huh? My left shoe has that property, too. It answers all prayers, except when it doesn't. Why don't you worship my left shoe? It's clearly as powerful as your god.

How about Matthew 17:20:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

NOTHING WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO YOU. By your own admission, Jesus is a liar. Apparently, the Bible is 92.7775022% accurate, but only if you spin every claim in it to make it favorable to your position.

Original sin is based on the idea that I should be punished for something someone else did. If I commit murder, are you willing to go to jail in my place? That's bogus morality and you know it. Ditto for Jesus' alleged "sacrifice". Does killing you make up for my stealing? That's the kind of "logic" that you Christians have bought into.

On the Nazi hospitals, you can make the same claim: they only wanted to help people. You are claiming that people who create hospitals are good. By that "logic", the Nazi's were good. You seem to have a problem with the application of your own logic to a different situation. As I've said, Christianity has a good marketing department. You've made the purchase. Maybe you can return it and ask for your money back.

On another post, you made the claim that people who want to commit suicide are demon possessed. You do understand that a belief like that is immoral? If someone inhibits a suicidal person from getting help and the person goes through with the act, then that person is responsible? I think such a person should be tried for manslaughter and convicted. It's like having a bogus belief that starvation is some sort of glorious gift from god, and going out and preventing people from eating, thus killing them. It's pretty much the same: causing death through false beliefs. Since you're promoting this attitude, I was wondering whether you have anything to say in your defense?

I've been claiming that Christianity is pro-killing and now you give me the perfect example.

As for prayer over speakers, would it be ok if we install a public address system in your church for Muslim prayers to be broadcast? You think it's ok in schools, why not in your church? Keep in mind that Muslims pray 5 times a day, facing Mecca. I'm sure you won't find it inconvenient, since you think that others should be subject to prayer in schools.

don

no he does answers prayers only when you take actions though.

yes matthew 17:20 does say that but do you know how many people have a faith of a mustard seed? its really hard. but its not impossible because people have done some crazy things like john g. lake did.

no you dont get it. before adam did that there was no immorality or moral. but the problem is when adam sinned he knew what was wrong and correct and has humans by us knowing what is wrong and correct we will pick the wrong. so god cannot be around sin so he had to depart from us. but he comes back when jesus sacrifices himself for our sin. for us to make it to heaven.

yes people who try to commit suicide are demon possessed. and thats why we try to help that person by praying for him. i know dozens of people who tried to commit suicide but because of christian people didnt and now is a minister of the gospel. and i never said all but i do say that people that say they are going to commit suicide are not demon possessed but opressed. but some are demon possessed.

do you know that in muslim countries its against the law to not pray to allah. and in india you cant kill cows because thats against there religion. and they will kill you for breaking those laws. this country is considered a christian country. but we cant have prayers in school? but india will kill a person for killing a cow. you see how dumb you are making prayer not being in school.

Jonathan said, "by this post i can see that you dislike christians because you think they are terrible people. but let me ask you a question have you ever seen an atheist hospital or an orginization that goes to africa and helps kids that are in africa. i havent but if you have then please tell me."

By your post I can see that you can't dispute any of the facts that I gave you. Remarks about what you think I think is not a debate over the facts that I did give you? The Red Cross is a secular charity, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find one that does more than that one. The Red Cross, founded in 1863, was the world's first international "secular" charity and the first to establish itself in Africa.

Jonathan said, "but what i have seen is christian hospitals and christian orginizations that help kids in africa.

Christian apologists insist that religion is helpful to promote generosity and charity. They try to prove that by bringing up the Christian hospitals, clinics, schools, colleges, homeless shelters, halfway houses, and other educational and charitable organizations. Then they claim that there are no atheist hospitals or charities. In Cuba there are schools, hospitals, and public aid organizations that are doing more for their people than America is doing for their people. A few hundred years ago people could be killed if they doubted Christian doctrines. That is the real "Christian love" and "Christian charity" for biggest part of our history. Its was ended by the church and state separation. How honest is it for Christians to claim morality for themselves while denying their historical victims. The Salem Witch Trial anyone? If Christianity were really giving to others without asking anything in return they could have done far more than they have. As it is, almost all religious hospitals, clinics, schools, and colleges charge and collect fees that are about the same as, non-religious organizations. Those associated with religious groups receive subsidies, either in cash from believers and non-believers. Secular organizations engaged in the same activities but manage not only to survive without such help but pay taxes to the state and dividends to their shareholders as well. A reasonable person would conclude that the religiously affiliated schools and hospitals, far from being praiseworthy examples of altruism, are, in fact, inefficient and wasteful of money and resources. Of course, shelters for the homeless and battered women, food banks, survive, almost without exception, on a variety of grants. Most often, these are government grants. But this is no less true of organizations affiliated with religious groups as with those that are not. The Salvation Army relies on the ordinary generosity of people generally, and not just on Christians. The schools hospitals etc. of these religious-affiliated charitable organizations enjoy special advantages. Most of them own land and other untaxed properties. And they get huge income from these assets as well as other unrelated activities, all of which are also untaxed. It is arguable whether such subsidies are a good value for the benefits received, even if they were not unconstitutional violations of state-church separation. This demonstrates the wisdom of the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, which was intended to prevent this diversion of public funds to the support of religious proselytizing. Christian charity is the bait that they use to catch fish. The Christian religion is not morally superior; it is morally bankrupt. As it turns out there are secular schools, hospitals, clinics, homeless shelters, and other charities that do without Christian dogma. There are those sponsored by various government agencies. And there are private organizations, both non-profit and for-profit. Both public and private secular institutions have been far more successful at alleviating human suffering and promoting human happiness than any religion has ever been.

Those who criticize government programs need to informed that Religious Organizations do also depend on tax dollars. Even thought the Christian groups' interest is primarily in advancing the Christian religion while humanitarianism is a secondary goal.

Jonathan said, "so then why do you talk so much garbage about christians when atheist are the ones that are upsest with there belief and so selfish that instead of helping somebody they try to deprave of somebody getting helped by trying to destroy christianity."

This is an atheist message board, and I never comment on any apologetic's message board. This message board is for those theists and atheists who want to ask questions about atheism and discuss religion, history and science. You are doing none of that. You are simply telling the atheist community why they should not exist. We have the right to exist just like anybody else. We also have the right to express our opinions. You want freedom of speech for yourself and your "faith healing" church, but you don't want it for anybody else. If people want to believe lies they can, but some of us know that what is wrong in the world needs action not prayer that does nothing for anybody. Those people who do not want to know about science, history and the truth shouldn't be here.

Jonathan said, "why would you want to destroy somebody's belief all because they dont agree with you and not only that but deprave of somebody getting helped. you call us terrible people. but i believe you are the one that is terrible."

If someone asks me a question on this message board I have the right to give an honest answer. Those people who don't want an honest answer shouldn't be asking questions here. There are plenty of people out there who will give them all the lies they want while they take up a collection.

Jonathan said, "somebody is happy because they think that when they die they will go to heaven but instead of encouraging them and just leaving them alone, you go and start arguments.

No, I don't I am on an atheist message board and I am not going to any Christian web site starting arguments. Many theists ask questions without the name calling and do know that atheists do not believe in god what so ever.

Jonathan said, "atheism was always based on letting people believe what they wanna believe but instead you turn people away and try to believe in your foolish ways."

I do not know of any atheists going into any religious organization telling anyone what they should believe. If a theist is on an atheist message board telling me what I should believe, where I should go and what I should be doing, then I have the right to respond. You should be able to figure that out. I know you said that you are 14, well, I have a cousin that age who knows just about as much as I do. He could debate most anyone on any subject with the facts. Atheists do not believe in the xian myth or god/gods. Most atheists that I know would have answered your questions pretty much the same way as I did.

Jonathan said, not only that have you seen who is one of the faces of atheism its a lady named madalyn murray o'hair. she was known has one of the most hated women in the u.s when she was alive. she stole, lied, and cursed her own son. atleast are christian face is a person that we believe that was perfect and a nice person not one that was evil like madalyn murray o'hair. his name is jesus. so please turn to him because he does love you and he wants you to be with him. god bless

Madelyn Murray O'Hair was a college graduate with no felonies or serious misdemeanors in her record, was murdered by John Waters (a Christian and an ex-convict). He testified that he was never an atheist. He only feigned being an atheist so he could work for the origination and steal $600, ooo form them. A second man, Gary Karr (also an ex-convict) was also charged in the crime. Despite Karr's claims that the O' Haire family had embezzled money from the athiest organization and fled the country, her body was found in 55 gallon drum, along with her missing relatives. Many religious websites still carry information supporting the theory that she embezzled money from her own company and fled the country, despite evidence to the contrary. O'Haire was in good financial standing, with a record of honoring her contracts. She had no motive to embezzle money. Waters was an ex-convict, drug-addict, and gambler. Both Karr and Waters hoped to play off of the public misconception that atheists couldn't have morals because they do not believe in god or hell, and this crap helped them the death penalty.

Most of the people who ask questions of the atheists on the message board already have doubts about religion. That's why they are asking questions. If theists want to debate facts that's find, but you are not doing that. You are here to proselytize your faith healing religion without any opposition, and that's never going to happen. It is also not here for phonies to attack the atheists with cock a bull stories. Madelyn Murray O'Hair received some of the most vicious disgusting letters from Christians that I have ever heard. And she read them on the Phil Donahue Show.

"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church? A lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them." Martin Luther

linda

the red cross founder is a person that believes in god but doesnt think he gets involved with the world they except jesus is lord. i forgot the name of it she is not a theisiest or a desiest. there us another name. so yes the red cross the owner was a christian.

do you know that it is illegal to own a church in cuba. you atheist that work in cuba have just promoted dictatorship. in cuba the atheist believe that the people that go to church should be sent to prison. also fidel castro is one of the most evil men in the history of the world and he is an atheist and he kills anybody that believes in god. i know this because i am a cuban i live in hialeah where it is 99% hispanic. my parents are both cuban. and for you to use cuba as an example is horrible you guys have done nothing there.

i go on this message bord answering somebody's question on why they dont here god's voice then you say what i believe is ridicuolos. so ofcourse im going to answer back. and the man was an atheist. he got mad because he got fired. so he killed her. and she did steal and lie her own son said it. i dont agree with alot of things martin luther did especially that. martin luther again was a catholic and i dont agree with anything catholics do.

god bless.

You said it was my fault that I don't hear God's voice. You believe that works make God answer prayers (though I don't see how you need God for the equation to work), I wished continually (like the Bible says to pray continually) that God would speak to me. What else am I supposed to do? Maybe God doesn't speak [to everyone]. Besides, these works you told me to do in order to get the voice of God are not outlined in the Bible and that is why I don't recall you specifying what it was that I had to do.

Jonathan,

The Red Cross was originally the idea of Swiss philanthropist Jean Henri Dunant (1828-1910). In 1859 he had organized a group of volunteers to aid the wounded during a battle in Lombardy, Italy, when French and Italian troops under French emperor Napoleon III (1808-1873). The International Red Cross was founded in October 1863 when representatives from sixteen nations met in Geneva, Switzerland, to discuss creating in all civilized countries permanent societies of volunteers who in time of war would give help to the wounded without regard for nationality or religion. It's a secular organization and always has been.

American National Red Cross was founded by Deist-Unitarian Clara Barton.

The Red Cross is a secular organization. The cross symbol references the Swiss flag, not the Christian religion.

The rest of your crap is just propaganda being regurgitated by the ignorant for the ignorant.

I have every right to say what you believe is ridiculous. The person who posted that is not an atheist. No atheist has a question like that because they know why they don't hear god's voice. It's because he doesn't exist. Deal with it freak-o.

linda

clara barton believed in god and accepted jesus as lord. if you want my proof i will give you this website. http://www.spiritualitytoday.org/spir2day/884034jewett.html

the red cross is a secular foundation. but our argument was that atheist dont help anybody out and that christians do. so you gave me an example of the red cross being a program thats secular. but there not atheist. and neither was there founder. there founder was a christian. so you just made your argument worse. way to go! you just proved once again atheist are evil people while christians like to help people.

and for all the other things i wrote in my last post it was not because you dont feel like answering it to them its just that your not smart enough to argue with me. thats why you come up with all this garbage you talk about. until you answer to what i said you are not worthy of my time and have proven to everyone on this message board atheist are wong, judgemental, insulting, and not smart. so way to go! everybody give a round of aplause to linda!

god bless

The let's change the argument so I can win won't work any better now than it did in any of the arguments you have lost. Your original argument was about no secular charities in Africa. The Red Cross is secular, and is the oldest charity in Africa. However your comments about Clara Barton's beliefs are dead ass wrong. Although, there may be apologists trying to say she was a Christian her diary says she was not, and SHE wrote it. Clara Barton's beliefs ranged between deism and freethought. She was not a Christian. During her efforts to involve the United States with the Red Cross, Clara was often accused of being anti-Christ and not being a practicing Christian. It was widely known that Clara Barton did not attend church. Clara answered her critics by saying, "I suppose I am not what the world denominates a church woman. I lay no claims to it". A direct quote that I am sure even an idiot could understand. During the Civil War Abraham Lincoln (who every relative or friends said was a freethinker) gave Clara a letter asking for all concerned to aid her in her efforts to locate missing servicemen. She often had to ask Washington to help her when she was saving the lives of soldiers, and trying to get food and medicine for them. There were missing pages in her diary and she wrote that she believed they would try to deface her writing. She also wrote in her diary about people who caused her a lot of trouble in her work. I wonder who that would have been? NO I don't.

Various authorities have called Barton a "Deist-Unitarian." However, her actual beliefs varied throughout her life along a spectrum between freethought philosophy - the study of general problems concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, truth, beauty, justice, validity, mind, and language. It is not Christian. Forethought viewpoint that holds that belief should be formed on the basis of Science. Deism - Deists generally reject the notion of supernatural revelation as a basis of truth or religious dogma. These views contrast with the dependence on divine revelation.

Mother Teresa wrote in one of her letters, "I am told God lives in me and yet the reality of darkness and coldness and emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul." And her diary indicates she didn't believe in God. Anyone very smart will eventually come to that conclusion. But the apologists are trying to say Mother Teresa believed in God right now; even though everything she ever wrote belies that fact. She started doubting after World War II.

However, in Africa missionaries in recent years have enriched themselves while exploiting the masses, discouraged millions of Africans from using condoms, thereby increasing unwanted pregnancies and the spread of Aids, promoted sexism, contributed greatly to the persecution and deaths of alleged witches, etc. Indeed, Africa provides the perfect example of what Robert Ingersoll said about the historic role of the Church: "In one hand she carried the alms dish, in the other, the dagger." The same could be said of organized religion in general. In Rwanda, Christians were complicit in the genocide that occurred there in the 1990s. Many people were brutally murdered in churches. In Nigeria, Christians and Muslims have been killing each other by the thousands. Throughout Uganda, Zimbabwe, Nigeria and many other African nations, Bible-based homophobia plays a major role in the persecution, and in some cases, murders, of LGBTs. What Africa needs is what Ingersoll called "a caring rationalism." The Bible simply contains too many ultra-reactionary and inhumane messages to be blindly embraced by believers. A humanistic life-stance is the best way to approach the many divisive religious and ethnic conflicts that plague Africa.

Norm R. Allen Jr. the executive director of African Americans for Humanism and the Director of the Center for Inquiry/Transnational Programs. He has traveled to several countries in Africa to promote secular humanism and skepticism on behalf of the Center for Inquiry. Africa does indeed need an Ingersoll; the closest we have is Leo Igwe, and religious conflict is at least as bad there as anywhere else. After articles were published stating that religious organization were better at doing charity work Leo Igwe sent out a public e-mail. It is the head of the Nigerian Humanist Movement and the International Humanist and Ethical Unions representative in West Africa. He is actively engaged in numerous struggles including publicizing the frequent acts of violence against supposed witches (many of whom are children) and working to end Nigeria's own version of the caste system. After Matthew Parris argued for religion in Africa in The Times Online Leo Igwe details what he sees as the very real dangers of relying on religious groups to provide humanitarian aid to Africa: No doubt religions have executed many humanitarian projects on the continent that have impacted positively on the lives of Africans. But these projects, as helpful as they may appear, are Trojan horses. They are evangelizing weapons which missionaries use to get Africans to embrace Christianity. Missionary schools are religious indoctrination centers. He points particularly to the treatment of Nigerian women in church-run hospitals: It is true that missionary hospitals heal the sick. They also kill by denying women their rights to reproductive health services. Missionary hospitals in Nigeria carry out forced baptism on infants and forced conversion on deathbeds and forced administration of sacrament to patients.

Many religious charity Aid agencies, especially those involved with AIDS, continue to suppress or deny the importance of condom use in the fight to prevent the spread of HIV. Religion does not have a franchise on altruism, and a non-believer is probably more uninterested in the fate of their fellow humans than in converting them to some religion. There are strong arguments that religion does in fact corrupt charity with the actual impact on the recipients of religious charitable largesse. Examples abound of organizations with a religiously inspired mandate operating on the ground in ways that are unfair and unequal if not outright coercive.

AS FOR SECULAR CHARITIES THERE ARE TOO MANY TO LIST HERE. HERE IS JUST A FEW OF THEM.

DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS - is an international independent medical humanitarian organization that delivers emergency aid to people affected by armed conflict, epidemics, natural and man-made disasters, and exclusion from health care in nearly 70 countries.

DONORSCHOOSE.ORG - a simple way to provide students in need with resources that our public schools often lack. KIVA.ORG - lets you connect with and loan money to unique small businesses in the developing world.

OXFAM INTERNATIONAL - is a confederation of 12 organizations working together with over 3,000 partners in more than 100 countries to find lasting solutions to poverty, suffering and injustice. The Oxfams operate in over 100 countries worldwide working with local partners to alleviate poverty and injustice.

THE NATURE CONSERVANCY - The Nature Conservancy is a leading international, nonprofit organization dedicated to preserving the diversity of life on Earth. An environmental group that protects natural habitats and the wildlife within them. Focuses on "science-based" initiatives.

POPULATION CONNECTION - Population Connection is the national grassroots population organization that educates young people and advocates progressive action to stabilize world population at a level that can be sustained by Earth's resources. Works against faith-based policies that are supported by the Religious Right. (Like bringing birth control to countries too poor to offer these services to the people who really need it the impoverished.)

ROTARY/ROTARY INTERNATIONAL - Secular organisation, the world's first service club organisation. Clubs are nonpolitical, nonreligious, and open to all cultures, races, and creeds. Motto is "service above self". Notable project is global Polio eradication.

THE SEED FOUNDATION - National nonprofit that establishes urban public boarding schools to prepare students from underserved communities for success in college.

S.H.A.R.E. - The Secular Humanist Aid and Relief Effort or S.H.A.R.E. was developed over twenty years ago for those who wish to contribute to those people afflicted by natural or human disasters without having to use the intermediary of a religious organization. S.H.A.R.E. is a program of the Council for Secular Humanism, which for 29 years has been the leading organization promoting the rights and values of secular humanists in the U.S. and abroad.

THE INION OF CONCERNED SCIENTISTS - The leading science-based non-profit working for a healthy environment and safer world. United Nations Children's Fund - UNICEF mobilizes political will and material resources to help countries, particularly developing countries, ensure a "first call for children" and to build their capacity to form appropriate policies and deliver services for children and their families. UNICEF provides emergency and disaster relief.

ADSN PROJECT - The Freethought Society of Greater Philadelphia's Anti-Discrimination support network (ADSN) is collecting narratives highlighting instances of bigotry against the nontheist community.

ENGENDERHEALTH - an international nonprofit organization that has been working for 60 years to make reproductive health services safe, available, and sustainable for women and men worldwide.

IPAS - an international organization that works around the world to increase women's ability to exercise their sexual and reproductive rights, and to reduce abortion-related deaths and injuries.

GIVE TO SECULAR CHARITY, NOT TO A CHURCH, AND MORE OF YOUR MONEY WILL BE USED TO HELP THE NEEDY.

linda

no my argument was there was no atheist orginizations that help people. not secular. thats how i know you dont read my posts.

and you didnt show any website, books, or articles where you got this information. so until you do so i think you are lieing. i showed websites.

so again everybody give a round of aplause to linda for proofing that atheist are not smart, judgemental, and liars. way to go!

The information came from the Library of Historical Documents: - the information in historical documents are not books written about someone it is their own writing. It includes diaries, letters and personal writings. These documents have proven that in many instances famous people in history were apologist revised into "Christians" when they were not. Many were atheists and freethinkers, especially during the age of Enlightenment, which is when Clara Barton and Abraham Lincoln lived. It is not the writings of apologists. This is where the rubber meets the road, because it is someone's own writing, not a book written about them. It is plain that even if you read something you don't comprehend it. Through her own writing it has been proven that Clara Barton was a rationalist and opposed to Christianity, and guess what else I found in these historical documents? Florence Nightingale hated Christianity from her own writing.

Secular means non-religious and I gave you many comments by a Secular Humanist atheist about what the Christians have really done in Africa.

Speaking of the crucial influence that the Enlightenment exerted upon Christianity, theologian Albert Schweitzer pointed out, "For centuries Christianity treasured the great commandment of love and mercy as traditional truth without recognizing it as a reason for opposing slavery, witch burning and all the other ancient and medieval forms of inhumanity. It was only when Christianity experienced the influence of the thinking of the Age of Enlightenment that it was stirred into entering the struggle for humanity. The remembrance of this ought to preserve it forever from assuming any air of superiority in comparison with thought."

But we all know that these phonies had to change to keep up their rotten fake image.

Freethinkers include atheists, agnostics, secular humanists and rationalists. All of these groups are involved in many secular charities, and all of these people are being forced to give money to Christian organizations right now through forced "faith based initiative", they don't shun atheist's money.

Freethinkers accept human life as the primary basis for morality. That which enhances humanity is "good" that which threatens it is "evil." There are no cosmic absolutes. Given our existence in the universe, life must be the basis for values. Consequently, most freethinkers are humanists. This usually embraces a respect for the welfare of our entire planet, including the other animals.

Freethinkers know that meaning must originate in the mind. Since there is no god you must care if you wish to have purpose. Individuals are free to choose, within the limits of humanistic morality. Freethinkers realize that religious claims are false because they have not withstood the tests of evidence and reason. There is nothing to be gained by believing superstition fabrications, but there is everything to lose if we sacrifice reason for it. It is no only false but, it is harmful. It has been used to justify the oppression and enslavement of humanity.

Real social and moral progress has been made when people are free from religious oppression, including Clara Barton, Margaret Sanger, Albert Einstein, Andrew Carnegie, Thomas Edison, Marie Curie, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, H. L. Mencken, Charles Darwin, Sigmund Freud, Robert Burns, Percy Shelley, Johannes Brahms and many others whom we honor today for their contributions to humanity.

Secular humanism has no god, bible or savior. It is based on natural rational principles. It is flexible and relativistic, it is not a religion.

There are innumerable charitable organizations today; from international peace-seeking (and hunger-fighting) organizations to a multitude of national and local charities. In the U.S. such charities as the American Heart Association, the American Cancer Society and the Muscular Dystrophy Association are supported by donations to The United Way, which helps raise contributions for thousands of other national and local charitable organizations few of which are connected with religion or a particular religious denomination. And there are plenty of other charities seeking to help others like the Will Rogers Institute and Comic Relief. More food is given away each year by secular organizations and governments than by "Christians." Such work has more to do with a simple wish to help others than spreading the "Jesus myth".

The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and most other nations of northern Europe contain relatively low percentages of "Christians," yet their human rights records, their generosity, their average education levels, their quality of life, lengthy life spans, low crime rates, and low poverty rates, put the rest of the world to shame, including the far more "Christian" United States. Scandinavians also have the lowest rates of unplanned pregnancies in the world. They instituted comprehensive teaching in birth control in their schools, and it worked. The leaders of Scandinavia have a long record of working for world peace. Swedes have been in Bosnia far longer than Americans removing land mines. The leaders of Norway initiated the peace talks between the PLO and Israel.

Japan is another industrialized nation whose people have longer average life spans, higher average education levels, less poverty, lower crime rates, a lower percentage of their population in prison, and lower abortion rates than the United States. Fifty-six percent of the Japanese population "do not believe in God or a Universal Spirit." Compare that with the ninety percent of the U.S. population who "believe in God." (Countries that have as high a percentage of "believers in God" as the U.S. are third world countries.)

linda

please show me the website of the library of historical documents cause i was not able to find it.

secular orginizations are not religious. atheism is a religion. so secular means they dont focus on any religion. there are people there that can be christian, muslim, atheist, ect. so there goes that one.

and christian countries are not all 3rd world countries. ill give you a list of countries that are christian USA, ENGLAND, FRANCE, ITALY, BRAZIL, RUSSIA, WHALES, ARGENTINA, COLUMBIA, ECT. there are many more these are some of the few. as you can see most of these are not 3rd world countries. as for netherlands, denmark, sweden and the other northern countries in europe they might have less christians but christianity is considered the religion of the country. face it there are 2.1 billion people that believe in jesus but only 2% of the world is atheist. so any country that is doing good that are not christian are not an atheist country. japan is not atheist or christian they are buddahist. but me and you dont believe i buddahism so why are you using that argument that japan is a good country. they are not atheist. if anything you are just proofing that atheism is evil because there is not one country that is doing good because they are atheist. like i said cuba is atheist so is venezuela and they are doing horrible in there governments all atheist promote is dictatorship amd evilness. so there goes another argument that gos down the drain.

and if you dont agre with the U.S.A religion why dont you move somewhere else i mean appearently you like japan so much just move there. or go move to cuba where there are atheist or venezuela. because everybody else has a religion. so again give around of aplause to linda for making atheist look evil! great job!

god bless

Oh! You really should ask someone to show you documentation since you have never proven one thing you have written. Apologist's web sites is not proof.

The New York State Library has historical documents - and some digital libraries that you probably have to have membership to use. Papers of Clara Barton can be found in the Library of Congress.

Documents that prove Clara Barton was not A Christian can be found. However, the closest anyone comes is saying she was religious is calling her a Universalists. Universalism is unusual in its belief that a person can be moral, etc. without believing in a god. Various authorities have called Barton a "Deist-Unitarian." However, her actual beliefs varied throughout her life along a spectrum between Freethought and Deism. Annie Laurie Gaylor, in 'Women Without Superstition', lists her as a freethinker.

Jonathan siad, "secular orginizations are not religious. atheism is a religion. so secular means they dont focus on any religion. there are people there that can be christian, muslim, atheist, ect. so there goes that one."

Aside from the fact that I don't think you have ever spelled "said" correctly, that is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read. Atheist are not religious, do not believe in any god/gods and secular anything does indicate it is non-religious. They are both non-religious. You are ignorant.

Jonathan said, "ill give you a list of countries that are Christian USA, ENGLAND, FRANCE, ITALY, BRAZIL, RUSSIA, WHALES, ARGENTINA, COLUMBIA, ECT"

The is a rapid growth of an increasingly secular middle class in countries such as Argentina, Colombia, and Peru.

Even though they are secular countries including America, Linda said that RELIGION WAS DECLINING IN COUNTRIES WITH THE FASTEST GROWING ECONOMIES and RELIGION WAS GROWING in third world countries. Christianity is directly linked to overpopulation Third World countries. Were you TOO STUPID or TOO DISHONEST to interpret what Linda wrote? Pick one.

Latin America is home to about half of the world's claimed Roman Catholics but many people who were baptized Catholic never go to church. "The church counts all those who've been baptized as Catholic and lobbies for legislation based on that number, so people are asking to be removed from the records as Catholics expressing that they no longer belong to the church." The country's relatively liberal social mores clash with Catholic doctrine on birth control, abstinence before marriage and homosexuality. The capital, Buenos Aires, was the first Latin American City to allow gay civil unions, back in 2003. A constitutional requirement that presidents be Catholic was stripped out of the country's charter in the mid-1990's.

Your comments, Jonathan, about Europe are every bit as wrong. Since the middle of the twentieth century Europe has been secularizing, and especially since World War I. The National Census optional question on religion was answered by 92% of the population. Archival Research Catalog (ARC) The online catalog of the National Archives' holdings. According to a Census Less than half of the British people believe in a God, 66% of the population have no actual connection to any religion or church. Most people know that England is far less religious than America except for uneducated and poorly traveled ignorant Americans. The comprehensive professional research in Tearfund found that two-thirds (66% - 32.2 million people) in the UK have no connection with any religion or church.

There were many large-scale polls that proved that less than half the British public believes in God in 2008. The most recent polls showed that only 6.3% of the population go to church.

The English Church Census - The Christian Research Group's Fourth English Church Census is a professional census whose authors have never shied away from reporting honest statistics, no matter how painful they have been for British Christianity. 37500 churches were invited to take part, and about half did. Some stark truths of Church attendance, starting in 1998 and until 2005 half a million people have stopped going to church on Sunday. And it is still falling.

Sixteen per cent of the population of London says they have no religion, including 25 per cent in the City of London.

"It is not exaggerated to conclude that between 1960 and 1985 the Church Of England was effectively reduced to not much more than half its previous size."

'Religion in Britain since 1945' by Grace Davie (1997) "The number of people who say they are members of the state religion has dropped by 40% since 1983, according to a poll by the National Center for Social Research (NCSR)." UK is 'losing it's religion report by the BBC News 2000.

FRANCE: Catholicism is the primary religion in France. During the Ancien Régime, which has been widely criticized by secular-minded politicians. 33% declared that "atheist" described them rather or very well. Protestants make up 3 percent of the population. In traditionally Roman Catholic France fewer than 5 % of the nations 62 million identify with any religion. Gallup International reports that 15 percent of French citizens regularly attend church. Germany, France, Italy and Albania are officially secular countries. Even non-religious Muslims forming new groups in France. France has the largest Islamic population in Western Europe.

Anywhere from 40 to 70 percent of people in France, Sweden, Denmark, Austria are not religious and many are atheists.

The Chinese people do not believe in anything. They don't believe in god, they don't believe in the devil, and they are financing America. Japan is among the fastest growing economies and the majority does not identify with any religion. What you are being told about is a thing of the past.

Linda was only wrong about one thing. Reports from CNN - ABC News - America is a less Christian nation than it was 20 years ago, and Christianity is not losing out to other religions, but primarily to a rejection of religion. America Is Becoming Less Christian, Less Religious. Many cities are reporting that the population is becoming less religious. March 10, 2009 The Badger Herald: News: Wisconsin population becoming less religious.

The percentage of Americans who call themselves Christian has dropped 11 per cent in a generation. Non-believers now outnumber every religious group in America except Catholics and Baptists. Maybe there is hope for America.

America was founded as a secular nation! America is a Constitutional Republic with no official religion.

Jonathan, you have always proven that you are an uneducated fundamentalist with very limited knowledge. You have not won any argument on this message board. You have lost every one of them due the fact that you are ignorant, uneducated and totally unwilling to learn. Nobody should discuss anything with someone like you. You have also proven that you can't use the word proven correctly.

Jonathan said, "they are not atheist. if anything you are just proofing that atheism is evil because there is not one country that is doing good because they are atheist."

You don't know about the word proven? What is proofing. You do not have any accurate information and you have never given any references for your crap. You only regurgitate ignorant propaganda. I think everyone is through with your totally bigoted and totally ignorant fundamentalist fanatic team.

ray

i have been showing facts i showed facts the post before my last one. and plus most of the things i say is pretty basic knowledge. i dont write these facts that nobody has ever seen before (unless ofcourse your facts dont exhist). yes i checked all the websites you told me and i did not find not one piece of information that she did not believe in god like you claim. here is a website that she was a christian. http://books.google.com/books?id=TFRXY_GY8toC&pg=PA370&lpg=PA370&dq=clara+barton+believing+in+god%3F&source=bl&ots=lDI0LIgzcC&sig=eSnn9kaupLtL_3fK4zf4Nr1ZWoA&hl=en&ei=Cp2USor6HqfEtgelwLFC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

now i do not want you to say anymore ray that i do not back up my statements with information from reliable sources.

the reason why you make fun of my spelling is because your not capable of comprhending what i am saying because it is to advanced for you. so instead of trying to back up your claims you just insult me and try to make fun of me. your really showing me how atheist are kind people. please instead of insulting me try to write back to me with an actual argument and not this garbage that you have written me.

atheist are religious they stand up for what they believe. the world considers them a religion. so that is no argument. and let me ask you a question. do you really think there is no christian believers in the red cross orginization. if you dont think there are then you must be doing drugs. secualr is non-religious. so it is NOT a atheist orginization. again there are NO atheist orginizations.

again your argument is not very good. brazil which is in south america have the 2nd most population of christians. only 2% of the world is atheist so please dont tell me that there are atheist countries in europe. all of them have religion. the only countries that are atheist are cuba and venezuela which are communist. every country in the world has a religion. and almost all of them except 2 are not atheist. so you have just proven that when you dont have atheism has a religion in your country your country succedes. and since you dont agree with any of the religions why dont you live in cuba and venezuela maybe you will have a better life as a communist. thats all you atheist stand for is communism.

and ill say this again because appearently you dont read all of my post. the reason why you make fun of my spelling is because your not capable of comprhending what i am saying because it is to advanced for you. so instead of trying to back up your claims you just insult me and try to make fun of me. your really showing me how atheist are kind people. please instead of insulting me try to write back to me with an actual argument and not this garbage that you have written me.

and yet again linda and ray have just showed everybody that atheism is evil and hard headed. great job guys! your making my job alot easier.

god bless.

Jonathan,

You are making unsubstantiated statements. A web page is not proof of anything. A person's own writing is and you do not know how to do that kind of research. You have the same situation with the bible; you don't know how to research ancient history or manuscripts. Your comments that historians believe that the bible is accurate are as false as all the rest of your crap. No historian with any credibility would make a stupid statement like that.

Why are most of the threads supersized can that be fixed?

ray

two things.

1. all you guys have been doing is using websites not anything else. so stop telling me to use books when your not doing that either.

2. you havent made not on comment using facts. all you do is call me a liar. but you know what i expected that because thats all athiest do anyways they use no facts and just go with what people tell them. so you know what you are representing yourself as an atheist by not giving facts and by calling me a liar. so good job!

god bless.

Jonathan,

You sure can't determine what is being said! It's clear the statements are about the statistics from studies, and some were even done by the churches. It's also clear that the statistics from the churches are being done improperly when they are going by someone who was baptized at birth and not what they are now. That is because religion is a business that depends on membership and money. A wiki answer is not usually an in depth investigate, and could be done by someone that is not necessarily even qualified.

Why care about grammar and spelling? I care about the effort that went into what everyone else writes. I am not sure if it's a grammar fault or if it's verging on unfit but you don't care about doing it right, so let's stop giving a shite too! Just because someone can work out your meaning despite your poor grammar, atrocious spelling and total lack of punctuation.

Yes, of course bad grammar and spelling can hinder communication, and you get angry when people chastise you about your poor spelling because YOU ARE RIGHT and everyone else is WRONG WRONG WRONG!

kyle

1. where the heck did you come from. you just pop out of know where.

2. i use wiki a couple of times but not all my sources are from wiki.

3. religion is not a business. its a belief. all churches are non-profit orginizations. most pastors get a salary because they are a employee in the church. and most pastors dont get payed very well. why? because the average sized church is 60 members and the members is what pays the employees, electricty, and the church. so pastors usually get around 40,000$ a year. which is not alot. the reasons why you see people like paula white, t.d jakes, and benny hinn rich is because of there books and business. but most pastors get payed a slary and not very much.

4. i am 14 yrs old i do not write very good. for 2 reasons. 1. because i think to fast and i type to slow. 2. because i dont revise any of my posts.

5. i hope you read this whith an open mind and do not bash me anymore on my writing because you cannot argue with me on this topic.

god bless

Me and Leysin are better Atheists than you because we are unlike Chrsitians in that we have done away with bigotry. I keep an open mind, always willing to listen to knowledge. God not existing is so obvious it should only be spoken by the simple minded: those that are not willing to enter into debate as I am. You do not enter into debate, Linda. You state facts you show you have no understanding of because you can't put them into your own words or make inferences based on them. Therfore, I doubt you believe what you do because of free thinking. Instead it is following. You conspirators have made it obvious that you are not in Atheism because of its intellect, but because it is a way to harness bigotry. For the conspiracy in that Christianity is evil. That is why you are in Atheism. I put up Elements in Genesis because it belongs here, the show spectacles that sort of thing every time.

Devin Wesley Harper,

That stupid rant was unintelligible and irrational. There are people in the world that talk the way Linda does all the time. They are called intellectuals. It is very clear that you are more used to the ignorant and uneducated. They are easily duped. Without a doubt you are totally unaware of the fact that some people know things because they have acquired a vast amount of knowledge through study, and they can remember what they have read. They don't just let someone give them the same old line of bullshit that ignorant superstitious illiterates don't question. And some people know enough facts that they can prove you are wrong about most everything. Ain't it a shame!

I'm a way better intellectual than all of you. I don't go around asserting people aren't Atheists and intellectuals with no evidence to support your irrational claims. You all must need proffesional help for such a low self-confidence that you diss others with wild acusations and in the middle of telling others that they are ranting and irrationall they provide no evidence to support them.

I meant just what Dillahunty said. He is willing to accept something as true (that Jesus existed) just to argue about it. It doesn't mean we believe the things we argue for. There have been many people on the show that argued theistically, when it was time for the hosts to respond, they asked if they were correct to assume that they are theist. They tell them that they are not theists. Don't diss me for not understanding some of what Linda had to say in the Elements, you didn't just understand what I said.

It is insane to think that I am more likely to be lying about my name because I give it fully. To think that a liar would expect that after he makes an argument for God (even though my Elements in Genesis did not need a god) for the victims to believe him that he does not believe in a god is also crazy.

I know I'm gonna get flak for it so I wanted to clear one thing up. For Matt, whether he believes in it or not is not the point and this is not contrary to me saying he doesn't believe, because I don't think he has a belief on it. For me then, I didn't believe.

You were arguing against scientific facts for encoded in the bible pseudoscience, which is hardly an atheist point of view. You also used terms that indicate a belief the "author". Who encoded a message? Nobody would argue for the bible against science for any other reason.

The Bible does not allow for many things that modern science has observed and continues to observe.

It's not what someone calls themselves that really matters; it is what that person says. If someone has said nothing that would indicate that they are an atheist, makes comments like "atheists believe in god" while supporting faith healer's and attacking atheists it's not hard to figure out that they are not atheists. It is hard to stop these kinds of people from trying to force their ignorance on atheists.

Is it possible to make the message board more readable?

Do you mean when Linda gave you the scientific facts about the evolution of the Universe? She didn't know why the "Elements are not Encoded in Genesis"? She had to tell you over and over because you couldn't understand the real science that she was explaining to you. Everyone should go read that and see who doesn't understand what they write. I think that alone prove who doesn't understand what they are reading and what someone is trying to explain to them. "The Elements Are Encoded In Genesis" would be something that anyone with any degree of scientific knowledge would know is false. She had to explain it to you over and over because you couldn't understand why it's false. You don't understand one thing she has written about anything, and that's why you have never debated any of the facts she has given you on science, history or the bible. You can't debate with facts because you are too uneducated. Face that fact dolt.

You have tried to qualify all of your obvious theist dumb remark because you don't see why atheists don't believe them. You are trying to get around the fact that you are xian bigots, by calling atheists that you are attacking bigots, so you can proselytize on an atheist message board and support "Faith Healers". Anyone who debunks a "faith healer like Linda did with documentation and supported with reports (facts) is a bigot. Sure clown! If you can't prove what you are saying with facts nobody has to believe it, and xians can't ever do that. The truth is not own your side. You can't debate anyone with facts because you would lose. All you have proven is that you are xian bigot with no facts or education many times over. You believe in pseudoscience and know nothing about real science. There are over a dozen people on this message board that have not agreed with any of you, or had arguments with you, and I know they are real people. You have both insulted anyone that does not agree with you but you consider Linda your real nemesis because she always backs up everything she says with documentation. You can't do that, and you never have, and you never will. None of the uneducated dimwits who post pseudoscience can beat her in any argument because she proves what she says, and she knows what the facts are. Also many people write exactly the way Linda does in their own words with facts included. You have never read anything an educated person wrote in your life, and I doubt that you know anyone who could write the way Linda does. Everything any of you have ever written has been pointless and meaningless. By the putting up an apologist web address does not explain or prove anything. You lost this debate just like all the rest, and you can't stand it.

Pigs can fly if you are atheists.

I count six things wrong with Linda's writing. One time she missed the word because. Two more mistakes I found on Microsoft Word because I didn't want to read the whole thing again to correct her. I won't name any more because I don't want to read the whole thing again to correct her; probably why no one does. Another reason why I don't want to read the whole thing again to correct her is because I don't give a damn. Oh yeah, Jesus the amen, and then Revelation in parenthesis with no period on that sentence because it went in the parenthesis instead. Sometimes that's ok, but that sentence, if you can call it that, wasn't all in parenthesis. It also wasn't a complete thought. So, I named more than half. I hope that does it for you guys. Linda, should we worship you because you are better than us at writing? What's you god damn point? I look up to you though, I think you are more evolved than us, or maybe some other factor. Are you trying to seek compliments? By all means, take some from what I've said. Anyone could look at what I say and correct me, but at least I'm not a hypocrite about it because I don't care. I do care about pointing out this hypocracy. It doesn't take one to believe a fair tale to determine who the bad guy is.

Devin Wesley Harper said, "What's you god damn point? I look up to you though, I think you are more evolved than us, or maybe some other factor. Are you trying to seek compliments? By all means, take some from what I've said. Anyone could look at what I say and correct me, but at least I'm not a hypocrite about it because I don't care. I do care about pointing out this hypocracy. It doesn't take one to believe a fair tale to determine who the bad guy is."

That should be "What's your goddamn point"? I can imagine you writhing like a snake when you were writing all of that. Honestly, can you imagine what it took to produce something this sick? You are a, not very bright, fundamentalist creationist. So, what's your goddamn point? Oh yes, you keep hanging around to point out other people's hypocrisy? You might want to learn how to spell it first. Did you mean fairy tale? Speaking of hypocrisy; you might want to realize that you haven't corrected anything, you had to buy software to do it for you. I'm pretty sure it didn't recognize Egyptian words.

Devin Wesley Harper said, "Linda, should we worship you because you are better than us at writing?

Linda, should we worship you because you are better than we are at writing?" That is a much better sentence. I'm better at writing than you are too Devin; maybe you should worship me.

Maybe you want to be the center of all attention, and like most fundamentalist creationist brats you can't stand it when you're not. I am better than you are Devin, in damn near anything, and I'm 18 years old. You say you're 19, if that's true, you are not as mature as my 10-year-old sister is. You've had fundamentalist crap drilled into your head from birth, and the sad truth of the matter is, you are not capable of finding your own answers. I don't think you will have much luck convincing even stupid people that faith healers are not fakes. Not many people are going to be waiting on a word of knowledge from either one of you dumbasses either. You got your fanatic little ass kicked, and it really did rock your world. Most people know that the bible is very flawed, and not just because of Linda, but she does find extraordinary things. You have never been around anyone who was very smart or well educated in your life. That's what I think. I have very good reading skills, and I don't have a problem reading something that is very long, if I am interested in it. I read things Linda writes about science because I am interested in it. Some of the science she has written has helped me understand the theories better, but she writes on a very high level. Uninforme people couldn't understand what she writes about, and that's why you can't. I think what she wrote about Egypt was very interesting, but then I am a straight A student. I think that you resent smart people because that is how you have been raised. Most fundamentalists teach their brats to hate smart people, because they know that they do not agree with them. Also, evangelical fundamentalist preachers see knowledgeable people as a danger, because evangelical fundamentalist know that what they are spouting off about is not true, and that smart people can prove them wrong. I agree with most of what Linda says, and I have heard my dad say the same kinds of things about faith healers, and Intelligent Design. Anyone very smart knows that Intelligent Design is not science; it is just crap. I think more people are starting to question religion because of these stupid fundamentalist creationists. They are trying to bully their way into everything, and anything they get involved in is ruined. You're an example of what we are being forced to have to deal with, and I regret that people didn't deal with them when they started using these idiot to get elected to political office, instead of running them out of town.

I am glad that Emily and Linda corrected all of that inaccurate stuff you wrote about mental illness too. I hope I didn't write too much for you to read.

Software doesn't pick up the kind of mistakes Linda makes, try MS Word. Spelling if at all, comes second. Grasping concepts precedes the stupidity of spelling correctly. I've already said, I am not a creationist. Unlike Linda, I will actually keep telling you that. You have no proof that I am a Fundie or anything partaining to it. It is all conspiracy. As Linda said, people come here to learn and as I've said I am here to do that. "than you are too Devin" should not include too. You can't handle the truth that I am one of you and what that would entail. You can't compare girls to boys maturity. At the very least my easy conversion to your side whenever there is an argument handed to me as you guys see it proves I am not schizophrenic. If I am lying about me being an Atheist, why not assume I am lying about being a fundie? I didn't even say that I was so it is logical to assume the side that I am an Atheist. It's uninformed, not uniforme. I also read the long Linda's writings for the same reasons. It's funny they didn't prove that I was wrong about mental illness.

Oh no! You found criticism in Linda's mundane writing. Beware her followers will bounce and your own writing will be ripped apart. But for what reason, just because your views are different and you don't match up with their atheist standards. Oh no, I used bad grammar, should I now go back to correct it. I also don't give a dame. Thank goodness I'm not the only one that sees the hypocrisy.

To answer the question, "What's a relationship with God?" I have no idea. I imagine it has to do with servitude, more like slavery to an invisible man in the sky. Anytime I hear someone claim to have a relationship with God, I move back a couple of steps and run.

Leysin,

Anytime I hear someone claim to have a relationship with God, I move back a couple of steps and run.

I can tell you know a great deal about writing since the sentence should be. Anytime I hear someone claim to have a relationship with God; I move back a couple of steps and run. He first had trouble with Linda when he was a fundamentalist Christian, and that is what he is. We have seen all of your writing in all your pseudonyms, and we even know where your name came from, as you will see later on. This is typical of an ignorant, malicious, obsessed stalker. Linda is never going to answer any of your hate mail. You are stalking her in different pseudonyms, because you have a fixation on her, and that is why you interfered in conversation that other people were having with her. "Trying to Understand" you made the person she was talking to mad deliberately, and you also interfered when she was answering questions for someone else. You have been doing that for a long time, and I have studied this message board. I know exactly where you reared your ugly head a long time ago. You are obsessed with Linda, but she is not interested in you in the least. It is very clear that is what's going on and I have thoroughly studied it. Was it your fundamentalist upbringing that made you so demented? Yes, your attempts to get people to turn on Linda did backfire more than once. He is jealous because he wanted to be the sage and he doesn't have the brains for it. That is why he is trying to belittle someone who does fantastic writing on fascinating subjects. Since I have a master's and doctoral degrees in English, writing and literature I think I would know more about that than Leysin. He is also trying to occupy her time and attention with his hate mail, and that won't work, because she is not going to ever answer you; someone else will always answer it.

I THOUGHT I WOULD SHARE A LITTLE RESEARCH WITH EVERYONE:

Devin Wesley Harper said, Leysin reminded me of the Life game of a computer program, 7-10 minutes on this video, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7044753105944203252 . I put a space between the period and the link because I don't want it to not work if you copy and paste it with the link. They modeled it after some laws of nature and came up with dots, you'll understand if watch it, that perpetually make more like how life makes more and more cells; things like that.

If you look at Devin Wesley Harper "the elements are encoded in Genesis" then look at Leysin "Loving a theist" you will see the identical grammar and spelling mistakes being made.

Atheist Community of Austin Why do atheists hate/disaprove of Christiany? Joseph said, "Um, ok. I think that makes sense, sort of.?.? Yes: Dismiss the religious. Surely, they don't realize that their minds are cluttered with unncessary 'dirt' which obviouly impedes their ability to think or, I don't know, be smart. Faith isn't logical. That doesn't mean that God is illogical (said Spock). The dilemma, though, is that God has to find you. Perhaps He has and you've rejected him. If that's the case, He does have His limit, so it says in the good book. Trust Him today - perhaps He will then reveal the things that us obviously-not-intelligient Christians already believe. Though it is something that I rarely say TO ATHEISTS BUT FEEL THE NEED TO: IF I HAD ENOUGH FAITH, I WOULD BE AN ATHEIST." Emphasis added so that nobody would overlook what this creep said. He seems to have a familiar spelling problem too intelligient - correction - intelligent

General Discussion Respecting people's beliefs

Joseph QUOTE: "Also, different translations spell it out differently. I WILL SAY THAT I WILL BE USING YOU AS AN EXAMPLE IN A DEVOTIONAL THAT I AM WRITING FOR MY STAFF. That atheists often know more about the people than us Christians do! But there are many resources that can perhaps enlighten you on those 'contradictions.' Have you put in as much effort in finding those answers as you have in dimissing Christianity?"

His staff; just imagine how dumb they would have to be?

Linda said, "I'm going to use this with my atheist friends as a perfect example of the manipulative nature of sanctimonious nincompoops. Scholars say that the vernacular of the members of the Jewish not Christian sect that could have been the only one that a Jesus figure could have come from was Aramaic and not Greek, Latin, or Hebrew. (The Dead Sea Scrolls.)"

This is where he decided he was in way over his head, and he would have to try and discredit her without arguing with her. And he even made the stupid remark that he would have to try another tactic on another thread.

THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHO AND WHAT THEY REALLY ARE:

General Discussion - Are you rational? Are you sure? From: Devin Wesley Harper

Tracie Harris said that we should be able to share our beliefs without citing someone elses work. But I disagree because we all learn some things from somebody.

Matt Dillahunty said that he isn't smarter now than when he was a Christian, he just knows more. I was sad though when he hung up somebody because he didn't have the expertise to debate with him and said, "He's too far gone to reason with." One of Hovind's guys pleaded, "I know Christians see the world through tinted glasses, but will you, as an atheist, admit that you see the world through tainted glasses?" I believe his apologetics were correct, we all see the world through tainted glasses. Everyone believes something and the only way to come to conclusions is by assuming with faith. Except those who try to believe nothing.

It is apparent that they are having trouble with more than just Linda. When Devin Wesley Harper had a problem with Don he used it as an excuse to attack Linda. This is characterless fake rubbish, and that is all that a delusional fake religion can produce. You can also rest assured that none of your dirty work is going to succeed.

Jacqueline

^Jacqueline,

What is it with the need to constantly be correcting the spelling or grammar of everything written on this site? It's pathetic that this is what you focus on. I put a comma instead of a semicolon; oh no I must be the dumbest person in the world. You can save me and yourself a lot of time if you can just let it go. Were my comments comprehensible, did you know what I meant? God dame people, WTF. I'm just typing on the keyboard and sending it out. I'm not speaking gobbledygook or some foreign language, so why is this the most favorite attack that most of you feel the need to address. Is analyzing my writing enabling you to link me to others? These are commonly misspelled words and grammar errors that I will admit too. I'm not an English professor. I'm just your average individual expressing themselves.

I have said that I consider myself an atheist several times now and you still believe that I must be a fundamental Christian. Why? Where in any of my comments make me a fundie. If you go back and read over "Loving a Theist", I explained why I went off on Linda and I apologized to her for my harshness. Now, because someone else is bashing Linda you think that this Davin Harper or Robertz or whatever name that is attacking Linda must also be me, Leysin. I haven't been on this site, for no more than 3 weeks and I come to see my name being associated with asshole fundies trolling the forum.

Leysin is the name I came up with when combining parts of my middle name and my last name. I didn't even know that Leysin was also a name of a town in Switzerland. And why do you think that I'm stalking Linda. Linda has comments on every thread created, it's rare to see her not commenting on a thread and she is usually the first to respond. So, I guess from now on I shouldn't make comments after Linda or else I'll be called a stalker. You guys are getting all paranoid and because of what? Because I called out poor Linda and I disagreed with her and thought her comments were cold and insensitive. I created the dame "Loving a Theist" thread and I responded to what Linda said about how she thinks it is wrong for an atheist to attend church or support any church activity. How am I out of line for disagreeing with her?

Sorry Jacqueline, you have me pegged all wrong, cause I am not who you think I am and I've been participating here with honest intentions to express my ideas and expand my understanding. These people are probably laughing at you guys cause you guys are acting like a couple of chickens with their heads cut off. You guys are going crazy. I'd like to call a truce here because this is getting out of hand.

Leysin,

That's what happens when you trash other people first. YOU are NOT commenting on the topics you are commenting on Linda, as everyone has POINTED OUT. How sick are you. Linda is discussing topics and she is not discussing you period ever. Anyone can write on every one of the topics on this board, and that is none of your business; you sure don't know what is, and is not, your business. As long as people are commenting on the topics, which you are not, it is none of your business. The reason they criticized you, your grammar and your spelling is the fact that you have desperately tried to say that what Linda writes is inferior, and you have done that many times. You have suggested that nobody should read anything she writes. She has not done any of this crap to you, and we all know that. You interfered when she was discussing something with a person that wrote her back many times. And many others have had the same kinds of discussions with her and they usually do thank her, and do not have a problem, and I mean even the one's that she proves wrong. You are here for no reason but to try and bring Linda down, because she did tell you off, just as Jacqueline described. All I can say is don't you wish. You butted in on a conversation someone was having with her, and nobody else has done that. There is not one atheist on this message board that has ever had a big problem with what Linda writes. Even if they have a difference of opinion, it's not much of a difference. I saw some of the comments you have made and I agree with Jacqueline totally about who and what you are. And I saw the comments you made to other people besides Linda on that thread.

No, those were not common errors that everyone makes, and I did read the crap on both threads, and in both names. By the way Jacqueline didn't say anything about RobertN, but we already did know that too.

Pi is a hypocrite for siding with Linda because their writing IS bad. He doesn't read what Leysin said. Leysin said that she does NOT claim her writing is superior. If I were a conspirator, I would think that all the people claiming the conspiracy to be the same person under different names.

They think we're fundies because they also think Atheists care about details-even spelling. I don't want a truce, I want Dillahunty to apologize on their show for making fun of people for their writing.

Leysin said, "just because your views are different and you don't match up with their atheist standards."

Does this sick-o think that anyone believes he is anything but a fundie. If so you have got to be kidding. Our standards are this, you have nothing to say, so why don't you go bother someone else.

Why am I a fundie because my atheist views are different from someone else? I do not understand your rationale in calling me a sicko fundie.

It seems my reply was in responds to what Devin wrote. I did have something say and it was to note the bullying that goes on. Already, I have two haters just because I replied to Devin's comment and agreed with the hypocrisy that he speaks of. I too get attacked just because I spelled something wrong or used the wrong punctuation or for bad grammar. I find this really meaningless. Why do people feel the need to waste the time on correcting someone else's typing? Were they speaking Ebonics? Did you not understand what they were trying to say? So they misspelled a word, does that automatically disqualify them from having a view. I am confused, you say your standards are that I have nothing to say. But, I did say something and how is what I said bothering you?

As far as I know, the only thing Atheists should have in common is to deny supernatural claims. We can disagree with spelling, grammar, punctuation, and stupid ideas presented by the hosts of the Atheist Experience.

Important topic worshiping Linda, your bad grammar and spelling, how pointless; as usual. A dame is a lady; damn is a curse word. Thanks for bringing up spelling. You were saying you don't give a lady? Thanks for explaining that, now that's something interesting. We should all use bad grammar, misspell words and criticize Linda, anonymous, yes, but then I'm a coward. Leysin, I'm sure that's your real name, so, what was I saying? I like Brian better. Ah, yes, what nonsense, what utter crap. I bet you don't give a damn. I bet you will just find some other schlock that can't spell to read your stupid essays. What slobbering moron taught you to spell?I bet you don't even read this, I bet you will just disregard this as some peculiar atheist standard peculiar weirdness. I forgot what I was trying to say, but it doesn't matter. I bet you think that this whole thing is bad grammar, but really it isn't. Did I say peculiar more than once? I don't give a damn. Let me go back and read this again, I did. Oh well, I forgot what the topic is, oh yes, you don't give a dame or damn, then why do you keep sending these weird strange weird misspelled messages, I see we have one waiting now.

^^

Who's the ones that always brings up the bad grammar and spelling? Who started mentioning me and trying to link me to other comments that I did not make? I've never experience this level of bullying from a forum. You call me stupid and a moron, for what because I spelled damn wrong. Why I'm I wrong for defending myself from accusations that aren't true? I made a comment related to the topic, which is more than you have done.

See, just as I predicted. More pointless fighting about spelling and correct grammar. When will it ever stop? It's not a big deal, just let it go. I can't imagine the time wasted on proofreading someone else's comments. Do you not see why this is so stupid? Linda stop trying to correct everyone, its a little annoying. And Linda supporters, really? You guys are nutty.

Just because you don't understand what someone has written, and you don't want to read it, does not mean that other people don't. Nobody has to be a follower of anybody's to be fed up with your crap. You have problems with just about everyone, and all you ever put up is sick phony crap, not worth reading. Like your "Loving a Theist" fakery when anyone said they had bad experience with theists you went nuts, and everyone did said that. You told one of them that it was too bad that they couldn't accept the status quo. No atheist would have said that, are that they wouldn't trade a born again Christian for some atheist, no thanks. Especially when nobody suggesting it. I think she said that she didn't think you could get any woman especially no atheist woman. I disagrees with you, and nobody wants to read the trash that you are posting after anything Linda ever writes, and that is because you are too dumb to actually discuss most any topic. Nothing that you have been posting has anything to do with the subjects being discussed.

If you want to read things that are written especially for illiterates and fanatics I'm sure there are plenty of things written by apologists to choose from. You can't contribute to an intelligent atheist discussion, and I'm sick of your ignorant fanatical rants. You do not understand what she writes, not everyone else. What she posted is not a complete waste of everyone's time, but no theist would like what she posts, and she is discussing topics. I thought it was an informative and a well-written piece, but I am not a theist. Judging from what you have written, even if you had read what she wrote, you wouldn't be able to understand it.

You are envious because people do compliment Linda when she answers their questions with correct, not fake theist, answers.

Devin Wesley Harper said, "It also wasn't a complete thought. So, I named more than half. I hope that does it for you guys. Linda, should we worship you because you are better than us at writing? What's you god damn point? I look up to you though, I think you are more evolved than us, or maybe some other factor. Are you trying to seek compliments? By all means, take some from what I've said. Anyone could look at what I say and correct me, but at least I'm not a hypocrite about it because I don't care. I do care about pointing out this hypocracy. It doesn't take one to believe a fair tale to determine who the bad guy is."

All of this crap when she never has answered anything he writes, and was talking to someone else. Linda has no control over people complimenting her or not. I have seen some ignorant people try to attack her, but they never win, and I agree with Jacqueline. You are too stupid to debate or defend your crap so you are just going to try and attack her personally. She knew way too much about science for the elements are encoded in Genesis to float. Too bad.

She gets compliments because she is capable of answering things that people want to know, and you aren't. Neither one of those sentences you wrote was a complete thought. Please learn to spell hypocrisy before you call anyone else a hypocrite, and to say nothing of your incoherent insane sentences. I wish they would kick you out of here. You are not an atheist. You do not agree or get along with any of them.

I wish I had seen this sooner because I would have told them that you are not an atheist. You have all been on this message board fighting with atheists under various pseudonyms because you are stupid cowards.

Yes, Jacqueline, they probably do call the program and harass them too. Something one of them wrote, you are missing one of their pseudonyms, and I think it went to the group. He told two different stories about his faith in one name, and he was also on "atheist doesn't exhist." Yes that is how they spell exist. He told a different story about his faith there too. Under the topic "What is Your Purpose in Life" he was a Buddhist.

Anyone that has done as much good work as Linda has is going to have people who will stand up to an ignorant jerk who lost a debate and doesn't have the balls to face it.

You are not a victim stupid!

You misspelled even more than Linda.

I couldn't help but notice that Linda is answering a message about faith healers and telling someone about where the bible actually came from, and other topics. The fact is this is what is supposed to be going on, not what you are here to do, which is to disrupt something. I can see the points that these people are making very well. You seem to be incapable of understanding that they don't like you, because you would be very undesirable in any group. I think that this person is just not well.

To Devin,

I guess I am not allowed to agree with you on any comments that you make or I will be bombarded with haters that would like to see me silent. You have stirred up quite some animosity and I believe, me as well. It may seem that some of them have concluded that you and I maybe one and the same. I have noticed this mentioned several times and because we make similar spelling errors, they have no choice but to believe it.

You say that you were once a believer? Is this in fact true or are you a theist in disguise like some are speculating. They think I'm a theist because I attacked Linda. I thought I had good cause because she said something that I disagreed with and started calling my views hypocritical B.S. But I suppose I shouldn't get worked up when someone calls me a B.Ser. It seems as though there are some individuals that are untouchable. Apparently we have disturbed the hive. Best to just walk away and battle another day.

Leysin,

In brief you both suck! Yes, your craptacular writings are full of grammar and spelling errors that were mostly pointed out by other people, not Linda. Again, you are ignorant by choice. However, we've run into trouble making idiots before. It's nothing really new for f*cking idiots to make personal attacks on people that prove them wrong.

AN EXAMPLE OF HAVING A PROBLEM WITH OTHER PEOPLE AND IGNORANT STUPID GRUDGERY:

General Discussion - Capital Punishment

Devin Wesley Harper (Posted Jul 17, 2009 at 12:54 pm) "What is the ACA's position on it? What is your position on it as an Atheist? I'm against it because it's worse than being in hell forever. I'm not even for life sentences because it's as bad as being in hell forever. With optogenetics we can control our brain to cure depression. Maybe it can cure the emotions that end up in rape, murdur, and violence. That way the offenders have a chance at getting free by inhibiting the cause of their aggression. Actually smoking while pregenant causes aggressive kids, but optogenetics could heal that. Maybe it can heal the victims' traumas as well. Atheism can only take care of the logistical side of the problem, which is extremely important if emotions aren't the cause of the crimes."

Don Baker (Posted Jul 18, 2009 at 10:09 am) "The ACA doesn't have an official position on that topic and probably never will. It is an issue that has almost nothing to do with atheism or religion. The rest of your e-mail seems to be a pile of questionable assertions given without evidence."

From: Devin Wesley Harper (Posted Jul 18, 2009 at 3:22 pm) "It's speculation, dude. How about the ACA should apologize for attracting Linda because the Atheist Experience made fun of people with spelling errors and exclamation points. The person she had the discussion with on that thread told her that she had been very helpful and thanked her for her time. I guess Devin didn't notice that they parted without any animosity. Actually I'm sure neither one of them knows what the word animosity means."

Devin Wesley Harper (Posted Jul 18, 2009 at 3:25 pm) "Stay on topic; point out the stuff that has to do with Atheism and religion then if you're going to attempt to answer any more questions. By the way, please answer the other question."

Devin Wesley Harper (Posted Jul 18, 2009 at 4:06 pm) "Spelling errors are a fault of education institution, not the people, because we don't have a phonetic alphabet. I've made one, but you guys don't care about it or actually thinking about the cause of the problems."

{Some one tells him that he was home-schooled and Christian schooled and that's his problem. In between his tirade he was told that Don had answered his question and he just didn't understand that. I wonder how we are supposed to know his personally made up phonetic alphabet?}

Devin Wesley Harper (Posted Jul 22, 2009 at 1:01 pm) "Well said. But Don was rude to me when he didn't answer my question correctly. He didn't assume that I wanted to know the part about what it does have to do with Atheism when obviously we know what Atheism is. It was his mistake to not show us that he didn't know that I knew what he told me."

{Besides the fact that none of this made any sense. Someone already pointed out that he said us. I would like to point out that he also said we. When you are saying US and WE it means more than one person, and even if he hadn't said us and we other things made it clear that there was more than one person on his spectacular failure the 'elements are encoded in Genesis'.}

[Someone else answers the foolish question and tells Devin that atheists only have non-belief in common, and that they may have many different ideas on other topics.]

From: Devin Wesley Harper (Posted Jul 23, 2009 at 11:18 am) "It's not my fault you all are prejudiced against people who know how to debate for things they don't believe in."

{Disjointed twaddle.}

From: Devin Wesley Harper (Posted Jul 22, 2009 at 1:16 pm)

"Why should we respect people who have PHDs in arguments they have no answers to? In other words, what good is not arguing to someone on subjects they didn't educate themselves in? I used every one of Linda's teachings. If you are to make a claim that I have no understanding in particular talk of mine, please make some evidence of this and point it out."

{To say nothing of the fact that he doesn't understand that when you make a claim you have to prove it. Don didn't make any claim. Don just gave him an answer that he couldn't start a fight with or understand, and that's what the problem was. Don also didn't answer his pointless repeated posts one right after another.}

[Then he is told in a sarcastic post that Linda is not the topic and we are tired of hearing about her from him.]

From: Devin Wesley Harper (Posted Jul 29, 2009 at 1:10 pm) "Good point, maybe since it doesn't seem like you guys are smart enough to understand my answer(s) it doesn't mean you don't."

{When Don didn't continue to answer pointless replies and he used that as an excuse to go on a tirade about Linda. You needn't pretend that the stupid put-up-job on this thread is any different. Linda was disputing faith healing. She didn't mention his atrocious grammar or spelling. However, neither one of you have the ability of a very uneducated grade schooler in writing, expressing your thoughts, grammar or spelling. I think that should be your major concern, and not "saving the Christians" in an atheist community.}

You are both here to interrupt and cause disruptions when your creationist and Intelligent Design theories fall flat. Your stupid attacks on someone who proved you were wrong are over. Even if you are too ignorant to know it, atheists don't like to be told that they should not have a problem going to church to make theists happy. Everyone in this country has the right not believe crap. If you don't get it that's your problem, not ours. It's called Separation of Church and State. It's the reason people can't be burned for being witches anymore. Everyone knows exactly why Devin wanted Don to answer those pointless questions that he said he already knew the answer to. So why did he ask? Devin's reason for not believing in the death penalty was based on his belief in hell…. hahahaha some people are just the biggest f*cking idiots!

Don didn't understand my question. What I wanted to know I wanted to know even if it was tricky to answer. Don has shown he is incapable of answering except stating the obvious that it is tricky to answer. My phonetic alphabet I spent five years on.

ç, ĭ, ĕ, ¿, ä, ǝ, ü, w, r, zh, sh, z, s, ng, g, k, n, d, t, th, l, m, b, p, v, f, h.

"So why did he ask?" That wasn't my question. Go back and read it.

Devin Wesley Harper,

So, I invented the friggin iPhone. Have you heard of it? You think maybe that you can push that phonetic alphabet around a little bit for an el jobo. When nobody could satisfactorily answer questions if they used it trying to get a job! What are you doing here? Have you searched all the chat rooms for uneducated dawdle. Do you know how to click a button or something.

Your own personal phonetic alphabet will get you a hugh money making job. How many people use it?

All this talk has left me wondering...do you use the lord's name in vain? If Jesus had died 20 years ago would you wear an electric chair around your neck? I invented the phrase "Jesus f*cking Christ"!

You screwed up the alphabet, and you did the same thing with science. Do you know why people wear watches? It's because there's a limited amount of time that anyone should spend on idiots.

I don't call people idiots because I don't think anyone is incapable of understanding. My old pastor told me the electric chair thing. I'm sorry that you go to church; Leysin as well. But to the person who said Leysin shouldn't go to church because of the separation between it and state, well, Leysin isn't State.

That former pastor of mine forgot that Jesus said to use the cross as a symbol like the snake around the pole in Moses' day.

It didn't recognize E with macron and the Ash symbol.

How I loved that you've wasted your time responding to us idiots. Must makes you feel proud that you had your say when clear I wasn't talking to you. But yeah, jump right on in. Clearly, you had to get it off your chest.

Linda was the first to reply in a bigoted way. I go one at a time, but I think I can get all of you if Dillahunty apologizes for making this problem. He thinks that bullying people will change them like an older kid makes fun of the younger one for believing in Santa. But, it only makes the younger ask people and when it is applied to grown-ups about God they usually ask another Christian. Not to mention all of your uneeded disses are making Jonathan hate you all the more.

ON THIS THREAD DEVIN SAID: Devin Wesley Harper said, "Linda was the first to reply in a bigoted way."

Topic: "The Elements are Encoded In Genesis" - General Discussion

Devin Wesley Harper said, "If you were to get past the impossibility of my claim and go with it for a second, you would see that my story has overcame that discrepency. That's why I said you did ad hominem. I now know that you just didn't understand my idea, that's all, sorry for insulting you."

IF YOU WERE NOT INSULTING PEOPLE WHY WERE YOU APOLOGIZING FOR DOING IT? THE FIRST PERSON TO POINT OUT YOUR IGNORANCE WAS RATIONAL JEN.

From: Rational Jen - Devin said, "If you were to get past the impossibility of my claim and go with it for a second, you would see that my story has overcame that discrepency. Gross error in grammar aside (or maybe it was just a typo), did you read that before you posted it? Seriously, Devin. You want us to overlook the impossibility of your claim, one for which you've offered no evidence at all, and "go with it for a second" so you can assert that you've overcome its impossibility? Sorry, but my standards of evidence are much, much higher than that. We evidently understand your idea better than you understand the science that refutes it. No need to apologize - you could not possibly insult us."

Devin Wesley Harper said, "I understand the science even more than Linda. I didn't even think of the science before I made the concept. It just fit with science automatically and accidentally."

NO DEVIN, ALL YOU KNOW IS PSEUDOSCIENCE YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT SCIENCE.

Linda siad, "Your conclusions were no accident, and if you knew anything about science period you would know that you don't make the evidence fit the theory first while ignoring staggering amounts of contradictory evidence that undermines the conclusions. Intelligent Design uses the same method of making things fit the ideas that they already have, and that is why it is not science. ID is pseudoscience. Scientists do not start out to prove something one way or another. The researcher should have no "idea" first before considering all of the available evidence to make a rational and logical decision that is independent of their hopes and beliefs. Science has already provided testable theories that (explain the origin of the Universe and life in that Universe) that do not have huge mistakes. A theory based on Genesis is already undermined because Genesis is in conflict throughout with Science. Therefore, the scientific rival theories that are inconsistent with theories that are based on Genesis are better theories and are the accepted theories."

EVERYONE ELSE ON THAT THREAD (BUT DEVIN) SAID THE SAME THING.

Devin said, "The topic is, are elements encoded in Genesis. Not, let's put random facts that make the Bible seem wrong when they don't contradict the topic in the context of what has been told."

Linda said, "Genesis has been proven wrong by science, and you have not told us anything that proves your theory. Most people would find this a big problem. You never answered this. "The point is if the writer of Genesis encoded the elements in Genesis why didn't the writer know that it is the death of stars that created the elements. We know that stars existed before the Earth but who ever wrote Genesis didn't?"

Mark said, "David, you have not provided any reasonable basis for your claim that "the beginning of Genesis was an explanation of the first fourteen elements" and you have not shown how such an explanation has resulted in a successful prediction."

YOU NEVER ANSWERED MARK OR ANYONE, YOU JUST TOLD THEM THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND YOUR THEORY. NO, YOU DIDN'T PROVE YOUR THEORY. BACK TO YOUR STATEMENTS ON THIS THREAD:

Devin said, "I go one at a time, but I think I can get all of you if Dillahunty apologizes for making this problem."

I DON'T THINK THAT THERE IS ANYONE STUPID ENOUGH IN ANY ATHEIST GROUP TO APOLOGIZE TO AN IGNORANT FAKE WHO IS TRYING TO GET SOMEONE BACK FOR PROVING THEM WRONG.

Devin said, "He thinks that bullying people will change them like an older kid makes fun of the younger one for believing in Santa.

JONATHAN SAYS HE IS 14 YEARS OLD AND THAT'S MUCH TOO OLD TO BELIEVE IN SANTA. NO ATHEIST THINKS THAT THEY HAVE TO SUPPORT PSEUDOSCIENCE OR MYTHOLOGY, OR THAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE TOLD THAT THEY ARE RIGHT WHEN THEY ARE WRONG. NOBODY HAS TO SUPPORTS IGNORANT UNEDUCATED BLOCKHEADS. HE DOESN'T DO THAT HIMSELF.

Devin said, "But, it only makes the younger ask people and when it is applied to grown-ups about God they usually ask another Christian. Not to mention all of your uneeded disses are making Jonathan hate you all the more."

JONATHAN IS ASKING QUESTIONS ON AN ATHEIST MESSAGE BOARD. NOBODY IS ASKING HIM ANYTHING. WHEN HE DOESN'T LIKE THE ANSWER HE GETS HE IS CALLING THEM FOOLS. AN UNEDUCATED FANATIC WHO CAN'T WRITE OR USE PROPER GRAMMAR (OR EVEN SPELL IT) PROBABLY SHOULDN'T DO THAT.

You, Devin, couldn't hold a conversation with someone who proved that you were wrong. Rational Jen was the first one to mention how poor your abilities are while you were teaching pseudoscience. It's not science.

LINDA SAID, ON "THE ELEMENTS ARE ENCODED IN GENESIS". THAT "TRUTH DOES NOT FEAR INVESTIGATION:"

NONE OF YOU CAN DEAL WITH CRITICISM OR INQUIRY. YOU'VE BEEN TAUGHT MYTHS AND PSEUDOSCIENCE IN LIEU OF AN EDUCATION. NONE OF YOU CAN WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH ANYONE, AND THAT'S THE REAL PROBLEM.

Nobody has to agree with anyone on this message board if they are wrong, and that means anyone. "THE ELEMENTS ARE NOT ENCODED IN GENESIS". Everyone told you off on "Loving a Theist". The idea to tell atheists that they should be going to church to make theists happy was stupid and nobody agreed, NOBODY! Your idea that atheists would love to go to church just to make theists happy didn't work. And they didn't think that you were an atheist. Do you think that anyone doesn't know that your problem is Linda, who kicked your ass in science, because you don't know anything about real science? You do not agree with any atheist on any subject. An atheist is not someone who thinks the bible might be wrong about a few things. Most atheists know that there are activities for atheists to attend on Sundays other than church. You are not discussing any topic, and you are attacking all of the atheists.

If you can't stand opposition you need to post your myths and pseudoscience on Christian sites, because you will get opposition here. We don't let uneducated, ignorant fanatics tell us what to think. Guess what? Many educated people already know that Christianity doesn't warrant "respect" because it is false. You need to move on since you are incapable of understanding that we don't have to respect theist beliefs, and you are not discussing any topic. People of your ilk have been suckered into CHEAP rip-offs and illusions. You don't have the right to try and force your superstitious beliefs on anyone. You obviously can not tolerate the fact that you can not force ignorance on educated people. They can not be forced to believe things that are false. No atheist will tell you that you are right.

You have no credible arguments; all you can do is try to insult people. You are accustomed to talking to uneducated brainwashed fanatics, and doing all the talking. That only works with people who have never read anything from any scientist, professor or scholar.

Fundamentalist delusions or "beliefs" do not give anyone any power over others here. You can't use the false accusation that you are being "persecuted" here just because someone proved you were wrong. All of your complaints are dumb. Your problem is that you have never been around any educated person who would tell you that you are wrong. You really never expect that. You clearly have no idea how educated people perceive you.

You have not been prevented from insulting people or posting your trash. What you really want (like any xians) is to control the message board. You don't want anyone to tell you that you are wrong. That's because you are too ignorant to actually debate Linda or anyone else. There are no atheists that have agreed with any of you on anything.

Don Baker was pointing out to Linda that Jonathan had already done all of this with him in case she didn't know.

He really ought to ban you and your ignorant friends who are not here to discuss any topic you are just trouble making numbskulls, and clearly none of you are atheists.

Might as well call Baker an interrupter because he posted a message to Jonathan in the middle of Linda talking to him. That is a biased position based on special pleading against those that argue against your view because I doubt you would have said anything if I only wrote about his writing errors. This is a message board so keep in mind it seems like an interruption between these conversations but that is impossible in writing.

My views have always accepted that the Bible has bad stuff in it. This open mindedness allowed me to say I'm an Atheist because my views matched up with theirs. The animosity is uncalled for because if they think I'm lying why not think I'm lying about portraying myself as a Fundie? I admited to the latter. I admit to you the same.

Devin said, "Mental illnesses are ideas based on lies, known as delusions."

Mental illness in the dictionary is, "Any of various conditions characterized by impairment of an individual's normal cognitive, emotional, or behavioral functioning, and caused by social, psychological, biochemical, genetic, or other factors, such as infection or head trauma. Also called emotional illness, mental disease, and mental disorder.

Devin said, "Having audible halucinations besides your own voice is a misunderstandment, not a genetic disease. For music is a voice other than one's own. Then you can see that everyone hears things. Some people just get confused and make up lies like ghosts or personal gods or have delusions of hearing those ghosts or personal gods based on those lies that were made like religion." I've never heard the word "misunderstandment," but halluciantions can very well be the result of a genetic disease. Everyone has the ability to create music, for instance, but there is a big difference between that and hearing audible voices that aren't really there. If someone is hearing them, they are not just "misunderstanding" something, they are mentally ill. Delusions like those don't happen just because someone gets "confused." In my opinion there are two kinds of people who see and hear god: those who are delusional -they actually believe what they are saying and don't understand that it's not real.; and those who are liars and know full well that they are liars.

Jonathan said, "i have ministered before to people and words have just gone through my kind and with out even knowing what i said i said something that changed that persons life and they were going through what i said have helped drug attics stop being drug attics by just listening to god. so unless those are all coisidence i have heard gods voice and if you havent its not because god doesnt want to talk to you its because your not really seeking him."

One thing you might want to ask god next time he's talking to you is how to spell drug ADDICTS. And how arrogant of you to assume you know what's in someone elses heart-the old "your faith just isn't strong enough" routine when you are all out of exucuses.

"If someone is hearing them, they are not just "misunderstanding" something, they are mentally ill."

You can't prove that.

A delusion is a belief that is clearly false and that indicates an abnormality in the affected person's content of thought. The key feature of a delusion is the degree to which the person is convinced that the belief is true. A person with a delusion will hold firmly to the belief regardless of evidence to the contrary. Delusions can be difficult to distinguish from overvalued ideas, which are unreasonable ideas that a person holds, but the affected person has at least some level of doubt as to its truthfulness. A person with a delusion is absolutely convinced that the delusion is real. Having hallucinations is a symptom of mental illness. Not believing something unless it is proven is a step away from mental illness. Having audible hallucinations is a symptom of mental illness. Being a pathological liar can also be a symptom.

Mental illness with a psychological origin can be manifested either in symptoms of emotional distress or in abnormal behavior. Most mental disorders can be broadly classified as either psychoses or neuroses. Psychoses such as schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are major mental illnesses characterized by severe symptoms such as delusions, hallucinations, and an inability to evaluate reality in an objective manner. Schizophrenia definitely has a very significant genetic component.

The current belief is that there are a number of genes that contribute to susceptibility or pathology of schizophrenia, but none exhibit full responsibility for the disease. It is believed that schizophrenia is much like diabetes, which is caused by a number of genetic and environmental factors. Research also increasingly suggests that - like diabetes - many cases of schizophrenia may be preventable.

To put two and two together, schizophrenia may be preventable and requiring evidence for before believing is a step away from real mental illness.

Since pathological lying may be a symptom, maybe it drives their delusions and these two are related.

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