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quantum mechanics and God

Let's make a few assumptions (tell a fairy tale) and work with it:

- God exists

- "He" is a consciousness.

- Human beings are bodies with a consciousness, but they are not unlike God. They only need a body because they exist in the universe, they *co*exist. If they were alone and without Universe, they would be like God: Just a consciousness. No body needed.

==> Main assumption: The basic thing is not matter. It's consciousness (God). And he wants to make a world, wants to start *co*existence.

God's main problem is: "How do I create consciousness? I would have to know what it is so that I can build a second one. But I can't know what I am because I am whatever I want to be. So I have to know what will itself is!"

Let's make a jump because I don't want to go into the basics of how to create the Universe now.

If I stand in your way when you approach a point behind me in an open area, you would just step sideways very slightly during your way, problem solved. You forgave me for standing in your way. I mean, you have to "forgive" me, because coexistence=love is a symmetry-thing, and so it is totally natural to act like this, but from a holy Lord standpoint, my standing in your way is a HELLworthy offense. I am not stating that God is an asshole, I am just expressing how it must be for a holy self-perceiver if even the slightest "thy will *not* be done" presents itself.

And I believe that every human consciousness is technically just like that: The very light it is made of is just like God. You wouldn't think so if you look at some semi-beautiful human working as a sales-person (which means that usually it is a part of your job to lie to people). Well - the human was a shape of flesh, an animal, but the construct he is, a self-perception-apparatus of the most sophisticated manner, allows the rise of a true self-reflecting consciousness that might later teach other consciousnesses in school.

Human beings are not born as a God, but the Universe allows humans to become high consciousnesses - and to become that, they would have to go a long way. On their way, they would learn forgiveness, tolerance. So, a real high consciousness is not one which is ultra sensitive and pissed off by people standing in the way. A real high one would be ultra sensitive, also tolerant, forgiving, able to swallow his pride. So: The Lord himself would be a human being that you could step on the foot without mentionable repercussions.

Human reality is "designed" the way that we actually *start* with forgiveness-necessities: People stand in each other's ways all the time. And people learn to deal with that. Higher forgiveness-situations happen on the information level which is kinda spiritual, for what ever someone vomits into the infospace, someone else might pick up and get hurt in the mind. There, I said it.

I am way off course here, so let's go back:

If I stand in your way, it is easy for you to forgive me.

But if I saw one of your arms off, you would have kind of some emotional baggage with possible sideeffects on my immediate health.

What I wanted to make very clear is that forgiveness technically happens all the time. In a way, that's what we are: Unconditional coexistence. We are love. Some are more performant, other's suck at it - but we have to tolerate them (if necessary, put them in prison, for example).

Now, let's say that God wants to create the world. To build a system that creates consciousnesses and allows them to coexist, he uses building blocks. Atoms, electrons etc.

Why doesn't he use bricks? Because bricks are much to crude. Coexistence would be hell. The level on which every mind would have to live the constant forgiveness-mindtrick (inner relaxation) would be unbearable.

I am going for this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

At some point, how fast and where exactly an object is becomes *irrelevant*, the system works anyway! That would be where forgiveness takes over, where no pixel-solutions like "ok, then I tell him politely that he was not very nice" apply, where plain simply the "I don't give a shit" begins and true coexistence becomes unquestionable.

And this might be how God made the world: Look where it becomes bearable to experience the constant presence of other wills, where emotion can stand the presence of pixels (matter), then use those building blocks. What lies behind the uncertainty barrier might very well be God himself.

Creationism or ID (masquerading as science) uses "the god of the gaps" to explain the unknowns in science. The "god of the gaps" is not a new theory, and doesn't answer anything "scientific" and it never will. Not too many people today believe that disease or thunder is the wrath of god because scientists and technology have found the answers. Creationism or ID'ers do not find answers they just move on to new frontiers in pseudo-science with the "god of the gaps" explanation for new unknowns. However, they have not produced any new theory except for the "god of the gaps."

The Werner Heisenberg uncertainty principle is the theory that the observer can never know the exact position and momentum of a particle. Every observation requires an energy exchange (photon) to create the observed results; some energy (wave) state of the observed object has to be altered. So, the observation has an effect on what we measure. We change the experiment by observing it. Further, because both the observed position and momentum of the particle can never be exactly known, theorists were left trying to determine the probability of where, for example, the 'particle' would be observed. A large part of their problem though was to continue to assume the existence of discrete particles and thus to try to exactly locate both their position and motion, which is impossible as there is no discrete particle. Is there?

When you think about any unknown that there were/are theories about, but had/have not been proven, it's because the technology had/has not been developed to assist in finding the answers. A lot of times scientists are ahead of the technologies that are required to prove their theories. But, I think the problem of most unknowns is finding the (cause and effect) and developing the technology to overcome the human limitations that prevent us from finding the answers.

CERN LHC/ALICE/ATLAS will possibly answer a key question about many things. The search for the Higgs boson, a particle that's not yet discovered, but theorized. Physicists believe that the Higgs, sometimes called the "God Particle," is what creates mass. An experimental project that will collide either Protons, or Heavy Lead (Pb) Ions, at 14 TeV (trillion electron volts. There is already a decade of pre-planned precision energy upgrades (2009-2019), to optimize the 'impact moment', producing even more specific information data.

The "god of the gaps" particle or Higgs boson is what they think they can find. This is what the LHC should create when it collides protons together at energies of 14 trillion electron volts and recreates the conditions of the Big Bang 30 million times a second. And whose existence will push physics beyond the Standard Model that has dominated science's understanding of the universe for nearly four decades.

Max Born (1928) was the first to discover (by chance and with no theoretical foundation) that the square of the quantum wave equations (described by the Wave Structure of Matter as Wave-Density) could be used to predict the probability of where the particle would be found. Since it was impossible for both the waves and the particles to be real entities, it became customary to regard the waves as unreal probability waves and to maintain the belief in the 'real' particle. Unfortunately this maintained the belief in the particle/wave duality, in a new form where the 'quantum' scalar standing waves had become 'probability waves' for the 'real' particle.

Nanotechnology is finding the answer to this aspect of the uncertainty principle. Scientists have used new optical technologies to observe interactions in nanoscale systems that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle usually would prohibit. Researchers conducted experiments with high-powered lasers and quantum dots, artificial atoms that could be the building blocks of nanoscale devices for quantum communication and computing, to learn more about physics at the nanoscale. One common phenomenon in physics is the Fano effect, which occurs when a discrete quantum state (an atom or a molecule) interacts with a continuum state of the vacuum or the host material surrounding it. The Fano effect changes the way an atom or molecule absorbs light or radiation. In experiments on nanoscale systems, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle sometimes blocks scientists from observing the Fano effect. The interaction of the nonoscale system and its continuum state surroundings can't be detected. But in a new high-resolution laser spectroscopy experiment led by M. Kroner and K. Karrai of the Center of NanoScience at the Ludwig-Maximilians University in Munich, Germany, scientists utilized a new method. They measured photons scattered from a single quantum dot while increasing the laser intensity to saturate the dot's optical absorption. This allowed them to observe very weak interactions, signaled by the appearance of the Fano effect, for the first time. A theory for the new nonlinear method was developed. The theory suggests that the nonlinear Fano effect and the method associated with it can be potentially applied to a variety of physical systems to reveal weak interactions, Scientists also can revisit older experiments on atoms by using modern tools such as highly coherent light sources that are strong enough to reveal such nonlinear Fano-effects.

Nuclear fission was discovered in Germany in 1938. Werner Heisenberg remained in Germany during World War II, working under the Nazi regime. He led Germany's nuclear weapon/nuclear power program, but the extent of his cooperation in the development of weapons has been a subject of historical controversy. Werner Heisenberg revealed the program's existence to Bohr at a conference in Copenhagen in September 1941. After the meeting, the lifelong friendship between Bohr and Heisenberg ended abruptly. Bohr later joined the Manhattan Project. Germany did not succeed in producing an atomic bomb.

Some people say Heisenberg did not champion the project very much. Samuel Goudsmit of the ALSOS project interpreted this as being partially because Heisenberg himself was not fully aware of the feasibility of an atomic bomb. Some say: "Heisenberg may have tried to hinder the German project; others say he may have just been ignorant of how to create an atomic bomb, one can know his morality or his competence, but not both."

I find your theories very reminiscent of the ID er's theories about the mind being separate from the brain, and the god consciousness creating everything. I wonder, do they think god is the id, ego, or the superego?

QUOTE: "Human beings are bodies with a consciousness, but they are not unlike God. They only need a body because they exist in the universe, they *co*exist. If they were alone and without Universe, they would be like God: Just a consciousness."

Where is your proof of this statement?

QUOTE: "The basic thing is not matter. It's consciousness (God). And he wants to make a world, wants to start *co*existence."

Everything is made up of matter or energy not (consciousness) there is no proof of a god consciousness.

QUOTE: "Human beings are bodies with a consciousness, but they are not unlike God. They only need a body because they exist in the universe, they *co*exist. If they were alone and without Universe, they would be like God: Just a consciousness. No body needed."

The only concept of a place where no body would be needed is in the bible, which is where this has it's origins, along with the concept of god. Where is the proof that any place like this exists outside of the bible?

QUOTE: "God's main problem is: "How do I create consciousness? I would have to know what it is so that I can build a second one. But I can't know what I am because I am whatever I want to be. So I have to know what will itself is!"

It sounds like god has a few problems: What am I? How did I get here? And how did I make everything? I don't know, but god sure needs to explain how he got here first.

QUOTE: "Let's make a jump because I don't want to go into the basics of how to create the Universe now."

Oh no! You tell us the basics of how to create the Universe.

QUOTE: "from a holy Lord standpoint, my standing in your way is a HELLworthy offense. I am not stating that God is an asshole, I am just expressing how it must be for a holy self-perceiver if even the slightest "thy will *not* be done" presents itself."

The great and angry god will rise up and execute his awful vengeance on the wicked unbelieving people who are in his way because they can't see him and they don't know where the hell he is! It all makes about as much sense as anything else in the bible does.

QUOTE: "And I believe that every human consciousness is technically just like that: The very light it is made of is just like God."

Especially the part where god gets angry and kills people when they get in his way.

QUOTE: "So, a real high consciousness is not one which is ultra sensitive and pissed off by people standing in the way. A real high one would be ultra sensitive, also tolerant, forgiving, able to swallow his pride. So: The Lord himself would be a human being that you could step on the foot without mentionable repercussions."

So, I guess god is no longer supporting slavery and women are allowed in the temple (not educated) and everyone must be obedient. It's 'the awful grace of God' QUOTE: "What ever someone vomits into the infospace, someone else might pick up and get hurt in the mind. There, I said it."

Well, it all depends on what kind of crap your spewing if it will have any influence anyone's mind in a bad way. If it is based on logic it won't, but if it is based on a phantasmagoria of cruel myths, the spreading of ignorance, fear, and going to war oven them then that's a problem. QUOTE: "Now, let's say that God wants to create the world. To build a system that creates consciousnesses and allows them to coexist, he uses building blocks. Atoms, electrons etc."

What happened to consciousness?

QUOTE: "I am going for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle." "At some point, how fast and where exactly an object is becomes *irrelevant*, the system works anyway!"

I gave the most timely information on the Uncertainty Principle based on the latest scientific research and developments in science. That's what science does it answers questions; it doesn't deal in mythology. You use a theory (Uncertainty Principle) to prove a "fairy tale," but it seems that you don't want to answer facts.

You define God as "a consciousness." You then go on to give that consciousness attributes willy-nilly, such as the ability to create things, the ability to self-alter, the ability to manifest material things without being material - and so on. You don't mention these assumptions from the beginning. In fact, when you assume "God exists" you fail to define either God or existence.

You make a number of other assumptions not explicitly related to God without giving them logical or evidential reinforcement.

You use a number of terms in ways that really don't apply to the commonly-accepted understanding of their definitions.

I'm entirely unsure what you're attempting to argue here.

I thank mikeinnewyork for alleviating the need for me to formulate my reply to this. Instead I can confidently say, "yeah, what he said."

--Mike from Shreveport

It may be difficult for the average person to recognize that many of the things he is describing are scientific theories and quantum theories that the creationist like to use as a "god of the gaps" theory.

That's why you don't understand it!

Is there room for 'God' in the make up of the universe? Most likely no. Does quantum mechanics include some possibility that there is 'God'? Most likely no. M theory which sprang from string theory does talk about everything being energy which is interconnected through strings. The question of whether all this energy is some kind of super being seems to me unlikely. There is certainly nothing that could conclusively point to such a phenomenon. Does this energy have examples of consciousness? Yes - life on this planet has consciousness. But to then extend that phenomenon to the all seems only minutely possible, which is being generous.

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