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Atheist Experience
I'm not so sure spreading the truth to "good believers" is the right thing to do.

I'm not so sure so that convincing people that their god does not exist is a good idea(even though we know that to be true). This is a belief that keeps them civilized/happy, and that keeps them from doing bad things, theft, rape, murder, etc. If you take that away, we might end up with a person who no longer understands how to relate to the world and people around him. There has to be an underlying set of values before you pull the plug on his beliefs. Plus coping with there is no one looking after them, and no after life can be a really shocking and traumatic experience. To realize they are on their own could be a set back. People smart enough to get to this realization on their own are strong enough to deal with it. I rather them believe in anything they want as long as it keeps them civilized.

While people are welcome to believe what they want, God beliefs often are the source of harm. On other threads, I've listed a number of cases where religious belief causes harm, so I have many examples.

Let's take a look at just one. Over the last 60+ years, Catholic priests have molested children of various sexes and the Catholic church did little to stop it and could be seen to aid and abet. The Catholic church has effectively become an international crime ring (if it wasn't before). If any other organization did it, we wouldn't look the other way and give tax breaks, but because they're "religious" or "godly", we, as a society, look the other way.

As an atheist, I care more about the victims than the con artists. I think without religious belief, we could clean this up and bring the perpetrators to justice.

I'm not necessarily advocating running into churches and proclaiming that they stop services. But to suggest that people are 'better off' with a false belief because they may lack the intelligence to otherwise deal with the world in a civilized way seems not only condescending but, in all honesty, downright disrespectful and offensive.

"People smart enough to get to this realization on their own are strong enough to deal with it. I rather them believe in anything they want as long as it keeps them civilized."

The insinuation that theists are less intelligent or somehow less capable than atheists is not a good place to start from. I'm sure that isn't what you meant, but it is a position that comes logically from your statements.

In that case, I would suggest that if you truly believe theists are less intelligent, less capable, and somehow uncivilized if not chained to superstition - then perhaps you should not try to discuss their beliefs with them. Instead, you may want to spend that time thinking about your own beliefs of humanity and each individuals potential.

From: Francisco Barcenas (Posted Dec 6, 2012 at 6:45 am)

Francisco Barcenas said, "I'm not so sure so that convincing people that their god does not exist is a good idea(even though we know that to be true)."

Yes, it's much more desirable when only one side is allowed to speak. They don't have to hear anything they don't want to hear; nobody is threatening them with burning for ever if they don't listen. Learning to use logic and common sense along with the ability to reason is far more valuable than all the myths and fables that fanatics can dream up. If atheists are exposing a fake that has been sold as genuine and true for thousands of years without being challenged, and that convinces anyone that there god does not exist, tough tacos! But I doubt that atheists are going around knocking on doors with that as their goal. There are atheist who give lectures and write books that anyone can attend and read or not. There are a few atheist programs (but not many) that people can listen to if they want to.

I'm pretty sure that most people know that if you don't have a religion (any religion no matter how dopy) you will be the target of vicious attacks. You will also be denied your civil rights and harassed, because atheists are the only group in America that it is perfectly okay to discriminate against. I found an example of this under the ACA Lecture Series:

ACA Lecture Series Sissy Bradford -August 5, 2012 -Topic: Paying the Price for Defending Religious Freedom - About the speaker - Last fall, Sissy Bradford, an adjunct instructor who taught criminology at Texas A&M University-San Antonio, questioned why crosses were being placed near the public university's entrance. Although the crosses were subsequently removed, Ms Bradford was informed that the university would not offer her any courses to teach in the fall semester. In addition to losing her teaching position, Ms. Bradford has been threatened, stalked, and harassed by those who disagreed with her stance. Come hear her story. This lecture is available as video or an MP3 audio file.

That's why we need more things like The Freedom From Religion Foundation in the United States because they try to defend our right to be atheist and maintain the Separation of Church and State that protects all of our rights.

Francisco Barcenas said, "This is a belief that keeps them civilized/happy, and that keeps them from doing bad things, theft, rape, murder, etc. If you take that away, we might end up with a person who no longer understands how to relate to the world and people around him."

Morality didn't come from God's word because if it did we would still be raping, pillaging and burning. You know, the kind of love the bible teaches, that some people read and believe is the word of a superior being.

The fact that morality is an integral part of our evolutionary past is now well established in the studies of behavior genetics. Edward O. Wilson was first to assert that morality is an innate feature of our evolutionary past. Moral behaviors of social animals evolved to make societies work and that is the foundation from which human morality evolved.

What you are espousing is a very old excuse to keep religion going. Moral judgments provided a survival technique of a primitive cultures that lived in groups, now vanished, selfishness had to be controlled or there wouldn't have been any advantage to communal living. Morality is an evolutionary artifact that is still used to indoctrinate people in numerous belief structures that make little sense other than some people still need to obey their masters and that makes them feel like all is right with the world, in spite of the fact that religion is full of lies and ignorance. Do you really believe that people who are not rapist or murderers would be running a muck raping and killing without silly bible stories about talking snakes and donkeys? What about all of the killing in the Bible.

Samson killed 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass Judges 15:14

Elisha (with help from God) sent two bears to kill forty two children for making fun of his bald head. 2 Kings 2:22

And I could go on and because there's plenty of killing and raping.

Francisco Barcenas said, "There has to be an underlying set of values before you pull the plug on his beliefs. Plus coping with there is no one looking after them, and no after life can be a really shocking and traumatic experience."

I take it you have first hand information? But how about before Christianity became the state religion of Rome there were all kinds of religions, and they were all tolerated. There were hundreds of gospels very different from the four that were picked. These texts were outlawed by Rome. After the Roman Emperor Galleries, who shared the position of Emperor at the same time as Constantine, died Constantine ruled the Roman Empire alone.

Then the Roman Emperor Constantine convened a council of Christian bishops the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD in Turkey. Constantine paid for the printing of the New Religion's bibles (all other books were burned) and he used the state to support and authorize the Christian religion and Churches with government funds. Those who denied the deity of Jesus Christ were labeled heretics and many were tortured or murdered. Christianity was a device to rule over people period. That's why people should be taught ethics not superstition mixed with violent stories; it's not to make them good, it's nonsense and crap designed to scare and control people. It usually makes them crazy and dangerous. That is why the most violent countries in the world are the most religious and the least religious countries are the least violent. The least religious countries are better educated and they take better care of their people - the least religious countries are also the happiest people on earth. I've posted all the data and I can do it again if you want me to.

Francisco Barcenas said, "To realize they are on their own could be a set back. People smart enough to get to this realization on their own are strong enough to deal with it. I rather them believe in anything they want as long as it keeps them civilized.

Myths and fables keep people civilized? No, education does that. But I'm sure that certain people want everyone to believe that a Holy Book that is totally false concerning anything that requires an education is actually very helpful in other ways. When the truth is these Holy Books are not valuable teaching tool at all. There is nothing in them of value that couldn't be taught by much better methods. Some people think it is worthwhile to impart valuable cognitive content instead of worthless lies. Giving people (that are being threatened) the right information, along with the idea that they have the right to live without fear, and ask questions is valuable.

I would like to see the end of toadying to small-minded "believers" who are too stupid to do research or use correct grammar, or even give a logical argument. Even though they don't come up with any proof that any god ever existed that would meet the same standards that any scientific or scholarly work does they treat the atheists with incivility while they demand to be treated with extreme civility (they are special) why? All they have is bull shit; and slander toward those who don't agree with them, the threats of hell, or the reward of heaven. But when you take all that away they have nothing left.

I think these people should be ignored because that's better than anything they want for atheists. I would much rather listen to a support group for the atheists (who are easy to pick out) atheists have loads of issues that could be discussed if anyone's interested and none of it's about what theists postulate.

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