I just ran into Don Baker's website "chrisitianitymeme.org." and I find it interesting that the people in the Atheist community, especially the devotees of Richard Dawkins continuer to pretend that "memes" exist, even though prominent atheists like Massimo Pigliucci consider it unwarranted. So the question is why do they continue to use it and why do they make themselves out to be disciples themselves? It is interesting the lack of critical thought that takes place here, that is christianity is a meme, but atheism is not. I think a lot of believers would say the same for atheism. Interestingly enough neither can demonstrate its verity. I am an atheist and have been for as long as I can remember, but this so-called New Atheist movement is as bad at accepting nonsense as those who claim a deity. Not to mention the level of willful ignorance on both sides. Did anyone realize that it was a Christian apologist in the 80s that coined "new atheism"? Am I the only person that we live in an age of fads and crazes this being the newest. Unfortunately, the only people who agree are theists.

Why don't you criticize that site there? I'm guessing you have no way to post your complains so that the public can see you promote yourself at someone else's expense.

Anyway, South Park has done a show on memes, so they must be true.

Sorry. I did not mean to hurt your feelings Don. I just wanted to point out to other atheists, especially those who do not know about your website that it exists and that atheists have a habit of believing and passing on nonsense just like theists. If I were promoting myself Don, I would use my real name. Since I am more interested in the truth, especially the truth of arguments and not petty attacks on a person's character or assumptions of that person's actions. I suggest if you cannot handle being criticized, then you should step away from the intellectual playground. I gave up cartoons in middle school, so I will take your word for it. By the way, I read you have a doctorate? I find it interesting, and yet sad.

You didn't hurt my feelings. Yes, Massimo Pigliucci has questioned the idea of memes. It's a nascent area of research.

I think you don't use your real name because you prefer to hide behind a bunch of sock puppets. I consider it yet another example that Christians don't have anything of substance to bring to the table.

I think you should get some psychological help. I think you've become obsessed with me.

I did hurt your feelings and it is evident in the tone of your responses. I do not use my real name because I take a cue from using logical argument where it does not matter only the argument being made. I do not care to advance myself. Only the truth. As far as Christians are concerned, I think that is a willfully ignorant statement. Perhaps you should consider Isaac Newton, Lemaitre, Darwin prior to his daughter's death, and Mendel. I maybe an atheist but at least I know these Christians were more of an influence than I will ever be. Lastly, you mention I need psychological help, but it seems you are the one that needs help because it seems to me you are making incoherent statements-- sock puppets and all that. The only person obsessed with you is yourself. By the way, who exactly is doing the research into memes?

"I did hurt your feelings". Did it give you a woodie?

The tone of my responses has to do with the fact that you're a troll posting from many different identities under the same IP address (24.15.40.238). You have no interest in real conversation. You've never really had anything of substance to say, but you're mostly interested in being a nuisance.

Since I'm moderator, I will delete any future post of yours that doesn't use this identity, including the fake one from "Peter" in this thread. So my "sock puppet" comments are justified. What's life like in Round Lake, Illinois? If you continue to be a troll, I'll delete all of the posts you've ever made. You've wasted my time, I can certainly do the same for you.

Who's doing research into memes? http://pcp.vub.ac.be/jom-emit/

Your "interest in truth" is a lie, based on your actions.

Teufelhund said, "I just ran into Don Baker's website "chrisitianitymeme.org."

Oh! You were just minding your own business and just ran into Don Baker's website!

Teufelhund said, "and I find it interesting that the people in the Atheist community, especially the devotees of Richard Dawkins continuer to pretend that "memes" exist, even though prominent atheists like Massimo Pigliucci consider it unwarranted.

What do you think memes are? Jacques Monod, the Parisian biologist who shared a Nobel Prize in 1965 for working out the role of messenger RNA in the transfer of genetic information, proposed an analogy: just as the biosphere stands above the world of nonliving matter, so an "abstract kingdom" rises above the biosphere. The denizens of this kingdom? Ideas. "Ideas have retained some of the properties of organisms," he wrote. "Like them, they tend to perpetuate their structure and to breed; they too can fuse, recombine, segregate their content; indeed they too can evolve, and in this evolution selection must surely play an important role."

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/What-Defines-a Meme.html#ixzzlsQhm38Qu Teufelhund said, "So the question is why do they continue to use it and why do they make themselves out to be disciples themselves? It is interesting the lack of critical thought that takes place here, that is christianity is a meme, but atheism is not. I think a lot of believers would say the same for atheism.

I'm sure that you would know what believers would say.

Teufelhund said, "Interestingly enough neither can demonstrate its verity."

The difference is that atheists proportion their beliefs to the evidence.

Teufelhund said, "I am an atheist and have been for as long as I can remember,

Thank you for telling everyone "I am an atheist and have been for as long as I can remember" since nobody would know without telling them.

Teufelhund said, "but this so-called New Atheist movement is as bad at accepting nonsense as those who claim a deity."

I'm sure that Dawkins (and all evolutionary biologists) could learn a thing are two from a cyber-troll.

Teufelhund said, "Not to mention the level of willful ignorance on both sides."

If you think that is a rebuttal you are willfully ignorant. You need to produce some evidence that disproves the theory. Nothing you have written indicates that you understand the theory. You found someone that doesn't agree with the theory but you haven't presented a case.

Aaron Lynch is an ex-Fermilab physicist who co-independently discovered the meme in 1978, and has been researching memetics full-time since 1986. His work has been cited by Douglas Hofstadter as important, and he co-edits the online peer-reviewed 'Journal of Memetics'.

Teufelhund said, "Did anyone realize that it was a Christian apologist in the 80s that coined "new atheism"?"

Does anyone care?

Teufelhund said, "Am I the only person that we live in an age of fads and crazes this being the newest. Unfortunately, the only people who agree are theists."

You sure got that right!

Teufelhund said, "Sorry. I did not mean to hurt your feelings Don.

The nicety of covering up underneath a facade of moral values.

Teufelhund said, "I just wanted to point out to other atheists, especially those who do not know about your website that it exists and that atheists have a habit of believing and passing on nonsense just like theists."

That's because you need to believe atheists are as dumb as theists.

Teufelhund said, "If I were promoting myself Don, I would use my real name. Since I am more interested in the truth, especially the truth of arguments and not petty attacks on a person's character or assumptions of that person's actions."

Would you like to go back and read the remarks that you've made - then put a piece of cabbage in your mouth and tell us what you really think about atheists.

Teufelhund said, "I suggest if you cannot handle being criticized, then you should step away from the intellectual playground. I gave up cartoons in middle school, so I will take your word for it. By the way, I read you have a doctorate? I find it interesting, and yet sad.

You think a lot of things are "sad". Maybe you belong elsewhere? Maybe you should go to church just to please a theist.

I really don't think you need to worry about brainwashed people (following the crowd) or becoming atheists.

Linda, who else's business would I be minding? The internet is in the public domain, since I am apart of that public I venture into it. You say I "would know what believers would say"--- well yes. I have beliefs. Also, I try to understand other peoples beliefs as opposed to tearing people down and thinking them ignorant or stupid. I am an atheist, but I enjoy reading the Bible. If your a closed-minded person, I guess ancient literature that so happens to be a religion's sacred book/s would bother your apple cart. Linda you state "The difference is that atheists proportion their beliefs to the evidence". Right. I do not know how long you have been an atheist, but I have known atheists and theists who are quite intelligent. Again, I am not a bigot and intolerant like others. I have read other posts by you Linda, so I know from experience that you and Don jump to hasty conclusions despite the evidence. You think everyone besides yourself is a Christian. Look at your ow posts if you doubt this. You call me a cyber-troll, but why? Is not the forum for everyone. Are you capable of a rational and logical dialogue without belittling others and calling them names. How old are you? You seem to be a very hostile and angry person, which leads me to believe that you are formerly religious. I do not know your past and I will not appeal to psychology to make my point. I just want you t realize your bias and bigotry. You are right-- I do not understand the theory. What observations have been made of memes? How can these arbitrary units be experimented on in a lab. You are right in your assertion that I know what believers think . You are one of them. You speak of "abstract kingdoms" and these imaginary units of thought called "memes". Yeah, I am the believer here-- LOL! I have heard said, that sarcasm is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Linda, I think you need to get off your high horse and be humble. You are very good at posting other people's work, but you seem unoriginal. When you speak of atheism, it makes me think of a religious person defending a dogma. Like I said, I have been an atheist since childhood and I have met a lot of former religious people like you who have a bone to pick with their former brethren. I do not understand this contention, because I have never believed in it. But, I am sure you will let me know in a very lengthy post as always. I do not know hoe old you are. Your posts suggest an angry teen, but I doubt that. Perhaps, anger management would serve you well and critical thinking classes to weed out that bigotry who so hold on to. Hope you get better soon.

Teufelhund said, "Linda, who else's business would I be minding?"

A copy cat remark! Go to - Atheist Community of Austin - topic - "Don't Go Along With It!" Linda's reply to Joseph? Linda said, "I am expressing my own opinion, who else's opinion would I express?"

Teufelhund said, "The internet is in the public domain, since I am apart of that public I venture into it. You say I "would know what believers would say"--- well yes. I have beliefs. Also, I try to understand other peoples beliefs as opposed to tearing people down and thinking them ignorant or stupid."

No, you don't, you have spent considerable time on this message board trying to tear down scientists and their opinions if it conflicts with the Word of God in the Bible. You are bent out of shape about the theory concerning religious memes in particular because it can explain how religions spread. Laing says, "it is probable that the worship of the Egyptian triad Isis, Serapis, and the child Horus helped to familiarize the ancients with the idea of a triune (three in one) God and was not without influence in the formulation of the doctrine of the trinity as set forth in the Nicene and Athanasian creeds." The Encyclopedia of Religions goes even farther when it states that as christianity, "came in contact with the triune gods of Egypt and the near East, it developed a trinity of its own."

See, that is what the spread of ideas is about and believe me studying ancient cultures provides plenty of proof.

Teufelhund said, "I am an atheist, but I enjoy reading the Bible. If your a closed-minded person, I guess ancient literature that so happens to be a religion's sacred book/s would bother your apple cart." I think it has been pointed out by many famous atheists that we know more about the Bible than most Christians. Most Christians just read the Bible they don't investigate or question it.

Teufelhund said, "Linda you state "The difference is that atheists proportion their beliefs to the evidence". Right. I do not know how long you have been an atheist, but I have known atheists and theists who are quite intelligent."

The issue is not about how long anyone has been an atheist (everyone knows I have never belonged to any religion) and it's not about who is intelligent, it's about your remark Teufelhund, "It is interesting the lack of critical thought that takes place here, that is christianity is a meme, but atheism is not. I think a lot of believers would say the same for atheism."

I'm sure you think believers would say the same, in fact, I know just exactly how long you've been an atheist, when you decided attacking and insulting atheists on an atheist message board as an atheist was safer and more convincing. Sorry, you couldn't pull it off, it's real obvious what you are going for.

Teufelhund said, "Again, I am not a bigot and intolerant like others."

The fact remains that we are questioning the authenticity of religious claims and you don't like that. You are totally a narrow minded bigot.

Teufelhund said, "I have read other posts by you Linda, so I know from experience that you and Don jump to hasty conclusions despite the evidence."

I've read post from you too, for years, bitching and whining because we have thoroughly discredited things like "there is more evidence for Jesus than any figure in history" etc. The simple act of posting the facts is cruel and so-on- and-so-forth. This is your miserable little attempt to impose your beliefs on atheists by calling it bigotry instead of rejection.

Teufelhund said, "You think everyone besides yourself is a Christian. Look at your ow posts if you doubt this. You call me a cyber-troll, but why?

Don Baker said, to Teufelhund "The tone of my responses has to do with the fact that you're a troll posting from many different identities under the same IP address (24.15.40.238). You have no interest in real conversation. You've never really had anything of substance to say, but you're mostly interested in being a nuisance."

Yes, and on every thread that discredits Christianity you think you can obscure that fact by posting a lot of irrelevant crap at the bottom.

Is there some reason you didn't answer Don? You just went to my response and ignored Don when he is the one you were attacking first.

Teufelhund said, "Is not the forum for everyone. Are you capable of a rational and logical dialogue without belittling others and calling them names. How old are you?

This forum is not for people who are proven wrong and then become irate and violent.

Teufelhund said, "You seem to be a very hostile and angry person, which leads me to believe that you are formerly religious."

No, I'm not the one that's angry because I'm not trying to impose my religious beliefs on atheists.

Don Baker reply (to Teufelhund) "I think you don't use your real name because you prefer to hide behind a bunch of sock puppets. I consider it yet another example that Christians don't have anything of substance to bring to the table.

I think you should get some psychological help. I think you've become obsessed with me."

Teufelhund said (to Linda) "I do not know your past and I will not appeal to psychology to make my point. I just want you t realize your bias and bigotry. You are right-- I do not understand the theory. What observations have been made of memes? How can these arbitrary units be experimented on in a lab.

You were given this information and you are too stupid to read it and then discuss it.

Teufelhund said, "You are right in your assertion that I know what believers think . You are one of them. You speak of "abstract kingdoms" and these imaginary units of thought called "memes". Yeah, I am the believer here-- LOL!

Would you care to address the issue now?

Teufelhund said, "I have heard said, that sarcasm is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Linda, I think you need to get off your high horse and be humble."

You have told us all about being humble before remember? Dr. Johnson stated "Patriotism is the last refuge of a Scoundrel" Oscar Wilde stated "Politics is the last refuge of a Scoundrel". Sinclair Lewis said, "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Only Teufelhund said, "that sarcasm is the last refuge of the scoundrel." And that's really dumb.

Teufelhund said, "You are very good at posting other people's work, but you seem unoriginal."

I'm sure your remarks with all the erroneous statements are something only a dumb-ass like you wants credit for. I make very sure to give credit to any expert I ever quote. I even gave you the page numbers remember? I noticed that you misquoted and then didn't know who to give the credit to.

Teufelhund said, "When you speak of atheism, it makes me think of a religious person defending a dogma."

Why would I need to defend atheism to a life long atheist. I don't defend atheism I discredit your phony religion.

Teufelhund said, "Like I said, I have been an atheist since childhood and I have met a lot of former religious people like you who have a bone to pick with their former brethren."

What does "a bone to pick with with former brethren" have to do with not agreeing with you? Someone who claims to be a life long atheists but has written nothing but vicious idiotic remarks about everyone who is an atheist.

Teufelhund said, "I do not understand this contention, because I have never believed in it. But, I am sure you will let me know in a very lengthy post as always. I do not know hoe old you are. Your posts suggest an angry teen, but I doubt that. Perhaps, anger management would serve you well and critical thinking classes to weed out that bigotry who so hold on to. Hope you get better soon.

Everyone go to - Atheist Community of Austin - The ignorance of atheists -

TheistX said, "I have read other posts of yours and you seem to be a very angry person. I suggest you seek help to relieve yourself of some of your problems."

Linda said, "Spoken like a typical finger pointing narrow-minded sicko-fanatic. This is all indicative of a simple minded person whose incapable of grasping a complicated concept and the only way to cope with it is getting really angry. It's well known that people who need help try to reverse the roll." ATHEIST COMMUNITY OF AUSTIN UNDER this topic "THE IGNORANCE OF ATHEISTS". Here are some of your contemptuous remarks that you made to Don.

TheistX said, "Don, I know you are not accusing others of committing logical fallacies? You may want to think before you cast judgment onto others. As a person who cares about seeking the Big Questions, willful ignorance, especially the kind you practice is not good enough."

Linda said, "Coming from an ignorant jerk like you that was a complement."

TheistX said, "You mistake my theism for a religious belief, I would have no problem knocking that empty head of yours off your shoulders. Magic? Fool what the hell are you talking about? You make assertions, you do not back it up. You refuse to take my advice and do your research. And yet I know not to what I am talking about? "Definition are the basic starting point for discussion". Is that right? Then why genius did you start this discussion with "Back again, huh?"?"

Linda said, "Probably because (no matter what the name) we all know your typical rants that are all over the message board. You are the one with the "problem". Talk about someone needing help WITH ANGER MANAGEMENT ISSUES. The reason you think people should just ignore your vicious, ignorant and nasty remarks is because you need help." Gee!! Maybe that idea came from me?

TheistX said, "How many times did I reference Craig? I am not sure the number, but I think it was twice. So, how you leap to him being my god, well hell I guess Matt Dillahunty is your god or is it Dawkins? Why don't you do some research so you are not willfully ignorant."

Linda said, "All of those comments were directed at Don, but they are very similar to the one's you just made to me. You're a 1st class jerk."

Yes, you have bitched and moaned about posts too long to read ever since you started posting your complaints and epics on an atheist message board. It's very easy to identify you (no matter the what the name) you make the same complaints (over and over) and you say the same things in the same words.

We will all get better as soon as you stop dogging us.

To be continued:

Linda, my intention was not to be mean--spirited-- if I my use that word. I just want to convey to you that I do not understand why there is such strife between former religious people, such as yourself with religious people, especially Christians. I have never been religious, so I do not have that experience. I try to se both sides and hold both fairly in my mind. To be honest, when I do read the posts here, they seem very hateful and full of hubris. I know we live in a time when it is easy to be mean and say what ever we want to those who are hundreds or thousands of mile way. You and I will probably never meet, so it is easy to lash out at me without be considerate or kind. I guess ethics flies out the window. To be honest with you, I am on no one's side. Not atheist's or theist's. I think being a freethinker means going where the truth is and not our feelings. I do not know if you can understand that or even care, but that is my intention here. And, when I do criticize my fellow atheists for believing in things that to me seem no more plausible that what religious people believe in, it is surprising the vitriol I get in return. Hence the dogma mentioned earlier. I maybe wrong. Thankfully, that does not bother me, because I have the ability of changing my mind and wading through the evidence. If you doubt my sincerity, then so be it. You mentioned that perhaps "this is not the place for me", but I think that this may not be the place for you. I am not afraid of giving my ideas the openness for criticism. But, it seems that you do. What did Bert Russell say about beliefs and keeping them at a distance? If you take issue with others and their ideas as mentioned above this may not be the forum for you, because atheists are about openness and the free thought. I am sure you would agree.

Teufelhund said, "Linda, my intention was not to be mean--spirited-- if I my use that word."

Why not? I'm sure you use superstitious words all the time like most fanatic pricks. I don't believe in the spirit world.

Teufelhund said, "I just want to convey to you that I do not understand why there is such strife between former religious people, such as yourself with religious people, especially Christians."

Most swirly eyed fakers can't believe that there are people who were never religious. I've never been involved with any religion; that's a very provable fact, how about yourself? All fundies believe (what you express) that the only reason anyone is an atheist is because they got mad about something. It never occurs to fundies that anyone would investigate the evidence and decide it's all fake. Fundies don't think that the truth is more important than propping up their fakery, which they use to fleece gullible people and control people including their wives and children.

Go to - General Discussion - topic - Rick Warren-barf Mr.T (Posted Feb 4, 2009 at 3:50 am) "Linda, I could counter your argument. Or we can get to the root of the issue at hand. You're personality! I've got you figured out I think" etc.

Notice he never countered the argument he only attacked me, exactly like what is going on in this thread.

Linda's answer: "My personality makes me ask why would "God" create beings that are so gullible! My personality makes me want to find out what the truth is for myself, instead of letting someone tell me what is true. It is the reason I am the way I am. I find out things by reading more than just one book or one opinion. I do wait until there is a preponderance of evidence before I decide what the truth is."

Then (under the name) Joseph (Posted Mar 16, 2009 at 10:23 pm) expresses the theme song as is on this thread about something must have happened to people that don't believe in God. What happened? Were you once a believe and then something/someone happened?"

Linda said, " Why doesn't god go in for proof and only approves unquestioning gullible faith? Why does god depend on the gullible nature of people to terrorize and control them?"

Teufelhund said, "I have never been religious, so I do not have that experience. I try to se both sides and hold both fairly in my mind. To be honest, when I do read the posts here, they seem very hateful and full of hubris."

You've expressed all of these sentiments before; nevertheless, you will never understand why atheists don't think belief in something for no reason is equal to finding the facts.

Teufelhund said, "I know we live in a time when it is easy to be mean and say what ever we want to those who are hundreds or thousands of mile way."

I'm sure most of us know by now that you are always the injured party - a very typical response when fundamentalists are prevented from forcing their idiotic ideas on others.

Teufelhund said, "You and I will probably never meet, so it is easy to lash out at me without be considerate or kind. I guess ethics flies out the window."

I think it was you that lashed out first, and it all depends upon what you consider ethical. I'm sure that you consider it ethical to let an overbearing bully bash scientists and atheists while running their empty head about scientists being wrong and bash a theory that they admittedly don't understand without any consideration for what scientists have been right about; like global warming! If anyone will save people from horrible things it's going to be scientists. Just think of all the diseases they have cured that the Bible says god inflicted upon us.

Teufelhund said, "To be honest with you, I am on no one's side. Not atheist's or theist's. I think being a freethinker means going where the truth is and not our feelings. I do not know if you can understand that or even care, but that is my intention here. And, when I do criticize my fellow atheists for believing in things that to me seem no more plausible that what religious people believe in, it is surprising the vitriol I get in return."

Yes, well, some of us just think the savior/god/man story is a myth like the Brothers Grimm story 'Hansel and Gretel' or Santa Claus. You are not talking about religion you're talking about what's in the Bible. Scientists research of "memes" coincides with what is proven to have occurred in ancient times that a shared supply of religious myths spread throughout much of the Mediterranean area, the Middle East and beyond. This suggest that ancient and modern religions have adopted material from this common source of stories about heroes, saviors and god-men.

Teufelhund said, "Hence the dogma mentioned earlier. I maybe wrong. Thankfully, that does not bother me, because I have the ability of changing my mind and wading through the evidence. If you doubt my sincerity, then so be it."

I more than doubt your sincerity, or that you've ever read one word of science or any other evidence that disproves what you already believe. If you don't like that then tuff tacos!

Teufelhund said, "You mentioned that perhaps "this is not the place for me", but I think that this may not be the place for you."

Yes, let's replace the atheists with fundie fakery - it's what's known as assimilation.

Teufelhund said, "I am not afraid of giving my ideas the openness for criticism."

You may not be afraid; but you foam at the mouth and go for the jugular like a rabid dog when someone tells you that you're wrong.

Teufelhund said, "But, it seems that you do. What did Bert Russell say about beliefs and keeping them at a distance? If you take issue with others and their ideas as mentioned above this may not be the forum for you, because atheists are about openness and the free thought. I am sure you would agree."

It's interesting you forget who started all this? Your the one that was throwing a fit and bitching about Don Baker first and now me. You don't like the fact that Don has another website where they discussed a theory that you don't like! It doesn't promote belief in beeezus. Fundies want to spread superstitious myths but they do not want their beliefs challenged by facts and reality. They are more than willing to preach and shove their beliefs down our throats but they don't want to be challenged. Atheists are attacked by vicious verbal slander every day and so are other groups that are targets for fundies hate. We all know that, but the fundies have to lie about that in order to come up with a persecution story! You are always crying persecution like someone with a messianic complex.

The invisible god story only works with people who want to be deceived and never look for answers. Atheists don't believe in this nonsense; an invisible being that only talks to special people who can hear its voice, this wouldn't last very long with anyone who has much sense. The problem is atheists are not dumb or crazy, and they don't give money or worship something that nobody can prove exists. Many people do not value or face the truth, until they have to. The invisible god only benefits those who are selling invisible nonsense. That's why atheists don't waste time or money on sheep dipping the public.