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Atheist Community of Austin
Haunted Houses & Demonic Possessions

Hi! Actually I'm Atheist, but I've some doubts about the existance of God. I've read and seen a lot of stories about ghost, haunted houses and demonic possession. Many haunted houses and possessions were evicted by exorcisms performed in the name of Jesus Christ and parapsychologist (I don't believe in parapsychology) .

How can atheist and science explains this supernatural phenomena? If ghosts are real then there must be the a soul and a God. Or all this stories are just lies or creation of our mind?

*Sorry for my bad English, isn't my mother tongue

Good point, let it be known that atheists generally don't believe in this either. How can a ghost have a mind to haunt when their brain is dead? (hmm you may also relate this to religious people!)

I think the only way a 'ghost' could be seen (of which there has never been any proof EVER) is if somehow an image of electromagnetic field was left behind of someone who was in the same place for a LONG time, and that image somehow burnt into some place.

By the way, why don't people see dinosaur ghosts or insect ghosts? I mean you'd think they'd make an impression. Sorry, ghosts and any supernatural is just nonsense. Actually sometimes atheists don't say a non belief in god (due to lack of proof) They actually state a non belief in a supernatural.

Although I'm still on the positive side that the flying spaghetti monster exists, and I'm positive people will pray to it oneday!

Where's the planet ghosts too? Geez let me know if you see multiple moons pop up one night.

The things that seem 'ghostly' and are not explained, are just not explained clearly. Although I'm pretty sure this unexplained phenomena could have a million explanations before you decide on ghosts.

Oh, I thought of another. (I hope Moderators allow the post)

Watch out for trees, they have literally grown just about everywhere! I would suggest never to take one more step, as you may bump into a ghost tree.

ok that's all. I'll go now :D

I have a fair amount of background in computer support, and often the user will tell me what the problem is ahead of time and ask me to address the conclusion that they have already made. For example, facebook won't load, therefore their internet is broken. But then I go to find out that their internet is just fine, and determine that only facebook itself is down, and not their internet connection.

The point is, some strange things happened to people, but how can you get from there to ghosts, haunted houses, and demonic possession. You said yourself that you've read and seen stories, but how reliable are stories? Have you seen hard evidence for this? How would you know that what was observed was a ghost, or especially demonic possession, how do you make that determination?

There are no confirmed supernatural phenomena for science to confirm that I know of.

To say if ghosts are real then there must be a soul depends on how you define soul.

To say that the existence of souls leads to the existence of a God is a non sequitur. You can easily believe in the existence of souls without believing in a god. If you are concluding a god based on a belief in a soul, then you have some kind of bias in place.

The brain has the capability to imagine, and is prone to fallacious reasoning. I think the safe bet is the last option you listed, creations of our mind, until evidence can demonstrate otherwise.

Well your determination and thorough analysis of Facebook being down in your hopeful hypothetical, can easily be confirmed by just going to this site: [http://www.websitedown.info/facebook.com]

"You can easily believe in the existence of souls without believing in a god" This quote basically irritates me. When I was young if someone was religious they did NOT believe in evolution EVER. But somehow religious people (through common sense and fact) are now allowing this BUT still saying they believe in god. Another cop out was people who say they believe in God but are not religious (I mean what the hell is that about? Don't answer that) AND NOW, it seems people can believe we have souls but that doesn't mean they believe in the almighty!?

What's next? Oh yes they now agree life is on other planets but god put them there just to test our faith (again)

Absolute hypocrites. You know as you get older you actually see religion change to suit. I mean its not even gradual. Its like, oh yes we feel gay people are still children of god. Say what? Didn't you want to burn them alive once?

I don't think its that easy to believe in a soul. Where's the proof. And why don't animals and bugs and plants and planets and even aliens have souls? I mean its all just absolute nonsense, and so is this topic.

You believe in ghosts (or souls) Have you seeked (sought) medical advice? Do these things communicate with you? You do realize its just mind playing tricks on you. Because no one else (in the entire world) has ever captured a ghosts voice or image (except those unexplained pics that have a billion other more likely reasons)

Be gone ghosts. Maybe this is where the fear of religious belief really started. Also note there is no jesus ghost either, that's just a joke gone wrong.

Well, for example, my sister; she is not "religious", but considers herself "spiritual", and she believes all life have souls, and that there is like a pool of souls that we return to.

There's no evidence of course, but it's just what she believes. She doesn't believe in a god though. So I was justified in saying that. Just because it's rare to believe that, doesn't mean it's impossible.

Its not impossible. But then again anything 'could' be possible under that type of thinking. Its just extremely utterly incredibly unlikely. Plus ALL evidence points to that there is no soul (as religious people say just in people!!) in ANY lifeform, even humans who have existed for the most insignificant time in our universe 200K years compared to 13.7 Billion years of the entire universe time!

Anyway, if science one day proves that people (only!) have a thing called a soul, then obviously I'll agree. But it will be strange that monkeys and apes and dogs and cats and trees and even planets don't have souls, oh well the mind boggles how this could ever be proven. But I suppose anything is possible!

I think the same, all these phenomena are creations of our mind, until science can demonstrate otherwise.

Just about all of the old testament originated from earlier Sumerian and Egyptian religious sources, as well as, the one true biblical god. The spirit world originated with the Egyptians over three thousand years ago. Monotheism was created by Akhenaton IV in XIV century BC.

"Those who gave thee a body, furnished it with weakness; but He who gave thee Soul, armed thee with resolution. Employ it, and thou art wise; be wise and thou art happy." Akhenaton (King of Egypt, 14th century BC)

The Old Testament mentions ghosts in several passages, with one in particular described in detail. I Samuel chapter 28 tells how King Saul seeks out the help of a witch at Endor to call up the dead spirit of Samuel when Saul felt threatened by the warring Philistines. Saul disguise his appearance and approached the witch of Endor to act as a medium to Samuel so he could get advice from the deceased Samuel. Saul had tried to rid the country of witches, because he had been advised by Samuel to not suffer any witches to remain in Israel. Without the wisdom of Samuel, Saul needed to disguise himself before the witch of Endor, but when the witch conjured up Samuel, the apparition caused her to become afraid because she realized that her client was Saul, a friend of Samuel.

Lilith was the first wife of Adam and is referred to as "a spirit of all spirits" and "the Northerner." Either following a confrontation with Adam, or after the creation of Eve, Lilith fled the garden of Eden and refused to return. Lilith continues to roam the world as a harmful spirit, acting as a succubus who seduces mortal men and kills children. According to Jewish legend, Lilith gave birth to the Lilin, a race of evil spirits associated with witches and hags.

In Kabbala or the Zohar Lilith appears as a night demon in Jewish lore and as a screech owl in Isaiah 34:14 in the King James version of the Bible. In later folklore, "Lilith" is the name for Adam's first wife. Lilith first appeared as wind and storm demons or spirits as Lilitu, in Sumer, around 4000 BC.

Kenji (you said ) "How can atheist and science explains this supernatural phenomena?"

Science would need some kind of actual evidence (none exists to date) that there is anything there. There's plenty of evidence that there is nothing there. Kenji (you said) "If ghosts are real then there must be the a soul and a God. Or all this stories are just lies or creation of our mind?" *Sorry for my bad English, isn't my mother tongue

They are creations of someone's mind because they are not real.

Spiritualism as we know it in modern times started in about 1848 in New York when two girls, Katie and Maggie Fox, began telling people that they were communicating with the spirit of a peddler who was murdered and the evidence of this communication was asking the spirit to (make a nose) by rapping. These girls continued to talk to other dead people through rappings. It was eventually (meaning many years went by) before it was determined that the rappings were fake and the girls confessed that they were indeed faking the whole thing. But the older sister had began a spiritualism movement spread all over the U. S. and on to other countries. Knowing that this was fake didn't stop anything.

William Mumler claimed to produce "spirit" photos, in which individuals could sit for a photograph and a ghost would appear in the printed photo. This was around 1862 when the glass-plate negatives were invented. With these glass-plate negatives you could make double exposures of the previous photograph taken onto the current photograph. It was eventually uncovered that the ghosts that appeared in many of the photographs were living Boston and had their photographs taken previously.

In "The Demon-Haunted World" Carl Sagan criticized the argument from ignorance by saying the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" many people didn't understand that it was an unfavorable comment. They actually try to use that to say that you don't need evidence to prove something. Why would Carl Sagan have said "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" if he didn't think you needed evidence?

Houdini exposed many spiritualists as hoax before his death and like Houdini, Harry Price and the Amazing James Randi did the same.

That's interesting about the double exposure photos, but you forgot to mention that most religious people thought you were taking their soul if you took their photo! Quite obviously no souls exist anymore under that logic.

So the 14th century BC was the first report on this? Pretty sure there would have been more stories even before that though.

Anyway enough said, there are no ghosts.

Thanks for the excellent explanation.

I've seen a lot of videos of Randi debunking parapsychologist and people who claim to have supernatural power.

I can still vividly remember the day when I have received the Holy Spirit in my 'church'. The Glory of God could be seen or felt coming from the top because I felt a strange pressure acting on my head and shoulders. It seeped into my body and it continued to travel right into my abdomen. Diverse forms or energies were detected during the transition phase or 'downloading' if you wanna call it. The Glory is a form of bright golden light like the Sun. It is also as warm as the Sun. I was worried that I might suffer from sunburn if it continued to 'shine' on my forehead and eyelids.

1. Sun-like quality brightness (light) and warmth (heat). 2. Pressure from the top down on head and shoulders. 3. Electrical disturbances causing muscles to contract and relax at high frequency causing limbs to shake involuntarily and my tongue to flutter like a flag in high speed wind. 4. Continuous sound frequency got louder when it penetrated deeper. 5. No smell or taste were being detected.

From thence, I realised that God or the Spirit :

1. is the superset of ENERGY. Spirits possess energy. 2. is actually ENERGY. A living form of energy with moods, desires (will), intelligence, etc.

This is getting very interesting now. Let's talk about creation based on my experiences with it.

Hypothesis of God's Creation (based on Einstein's scientific theories or formulas):

The universe was REALLY a void in the beginning. It is an absolute ZERO in an INFINITE space. No photon, no light, no heat, no atom, nothing.

According to two Einstein's theory or formula:

1. "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another." -- Albert Einstein

2. e=mc^2 Mass and energy are interchangeable. In the right condition, mass can turn into energy and energy can turn into mass.

God is a Spirit.

"John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Spirit may be (1) a superset of energy or it is (2) actually energy. A spirit is probably a (2) living energy with intelligence, mood, will, etc. If God has a desire and a will, He may have created the universe from scratch with an INFINITE amount of energy to create mass in a selected space. This sounds much better than that stupid Big Bang theory that went pipsqueak instead of a bang? XD

(Vizo) "I can still vividly remember the day when I have received the Holy Spirit in my 'church'. The Glory of God could be seen or felt coming from the top because I felt a strange pressure acting on my head and shoulders. It seeped into my body and it continued to travel right into my abdomen.?

(Linda) I don't accept the fact that you got a funny feeling in your belly (in church) as proof of anything. And do you have a video recording of "The Glory of God that you claim could be seen and then felt coming from the top"?

(Vizo) "Diverse forms or energies were detected during the transition phase or 'downloading' if you wanna call it. The Glory is a form of bright golden light like the Sun. It is also as warm as the Sun. I was worried that I might suffer from sunburn if it continued to 'shine' on my forehead and eyelids."

(Linda) the problem with religious experiences as proof of something is you can't prove you felt anything. Can you reproduce this phenomenon? The only way it's proof of anything is if it can be repeated with the same results. Now you may say you can repeat this religious experience, but where's the proof of any of it. Too bad you didn't get a sunburn since you really have no proof of any of this. I don't think you'll need to take sun lotion to Church either, this is only a figment of your imagination.

(Vizo) "1. Sun-like quality brightness (light) and warmth (heat). 2. Pressure from the top down on head and shoulders. 3. Electrical disturbances causing muscles to contract and relax at high frequency causing limbs to shake involuntarily and my tongue to flutter like a flag in high speed wind. 4. Continuous sound frequency got louder when it penetrated deeper. 5. No smell or taste were being detected."

(Linda) Nothing was being detected since this was a holy roller revival, plain and simple; It's BS not science!

(Vizo) "From thence, I realised that God or the Spirit : 1. is the superset of ENERGY. Spirits possess energy. 2. is actually ENERGY. A living form of energy with moods, desires (will), intelligence, etc. "

(Linda) People on acid realize things all the time; but it's not proof of anything. It's convenient to realize something that was discovered by science and then decide it's god. It's like using science to cure someone and then claiming it's a miracle.

(Vizo) "This is getting very interesting now. Let's talk about creation based on my experiences with it.

Hypothesis of God's Creation (based on Einstein's scientific theories or formulas): The universe was REALLY a void in the beginning. It is an absolute ZERO in an INFINITE space. No photon, no light, no heat, no atom, nothing. According to two Einstein's theory or formula:

1. "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another." -- Albert Einstein

2. e=mc^2 Mass and energy are interchangeable. In the right condition, mass can turn into energy and energy can turn into mass. God is a Spirit.

"John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

(Linda) There was nothing that preceded the universe no space, time or matter, the laws of nature can create the universe without a "cause" out of "nothing" since atoms produce "virtual" particles that pop in and out of existence all the time on the sub-atomic level.

These virtual particles cancel out each other eventually, but in the meanwhile they lend atomic particles most of their mass. And their existence can be measured in electrical phenomena apparent at very small scales. The quantum mechanical uncertainty principle allows for particle-antiparticle pairs to appear spontaneously out of empty space for very brief periods of time.

These virtual particles (quantum vacuum fluctuations) create measurable effects such as the Casimir-Polder force and the Lamb shift. Observations that supports the theory: Inflationary theory shows how a tiny, ephemeral speck emerge from "nothingness" could be boosted into permanence by a period of accelerating expansion and then continue expanding to become "something" the vast universe we know.

According to the theory, in the expanding field matter is created out of the growing energy of gravity itself. The matter is considered positive energy, and the gravity is considered negative. The two mathematically cancel each other out, so that the total energy of the growing universe is zero. So the laws of conservation are not violated.

The Universe can be achieved without a cause. Since scientists found out about vacuum fluctuations they have know God is unnecessary for the universe to exists. Physics shows that spontaneous production happens all the time. Radioactivity doesn't need a cause, it appears spontaneously. and that is how the universe came into being. Spontaneous production of energy and matter. It started with a Vacuum fluctuation, which caused the expansion of the singularity, which produced our universe.

(Vizo) "Spirit may be (1) a superset of energy or it is (2) actually energy. A spirit is probably a (2) living energy with intelligence, mood, will, etc. If God has a desire and a will, He may have created the universe from scratch with an INFINITE amount of energy to create mass in a selected space. This sounds much better than that stupid Big Bang theory that went pipsqueak instead of a bang? XD"

(Linda) First you go into a typical rocking and rolling, quivering and shaking all over, speaking in Tongues holly roller experience. They are a dime a dozen and prove nothing. Then you misspelled (realised) and decided God or the Spirit is the superset of ENERGY. A living form of energy with moods, desires (will), intelligence, etc."

(Linda) You realized God is the Superset of Energy? Because you think that by putting God into Einstein's (mathematical equation) or a theory means you have proven something. We know that a sudden burst of energy is how the universe started expanding and I have written about that many time and discussed Einsteins theories. From the moment we discover vacuum fluctuations, we can see the idea of God is superfluous or unnecessary.

When ever I have to read the insane ranting of a troll I think about according to the bible babble God sent us evil, and has let it rule the earth for thousand of years. Why did an all loving god do that? Maybe that's why they prefer discussing how "science proves god exists" hoping it might keep the christian dopes in a herd.

The problem is no one here believes it and you can't prove any of it, and you're out of your depth. I have never once seen a single valid piece of evidence to prove a God exists.

You are trying to find God in the theories of scientists (like Einstein) who were looking for theories about how universe came into being but you don't really discuss those theories you just put God into the equation for no reason. So, let's discuss why your ideas do not work. One reason is that you have no evidence for anything you have claimed but the scientists whose theories you are trying to use had to prove everything they claim.

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