User Name:

Password:

FAQ Donate Join

Atheist Community of Austin
Atheists, how strong are your beliefs? (Test)

Your plane crashes into the ocean and you are the only survivor. You're drifting in cold ocean waters and unfortunately they are shark infested. You're fearing for your life and thinking of ways to survive. You feel something brush against your leg.

At this moment will you come to know the Lord? Will you cry out to God? Or will you ponder all the scientific evidence that led to the evolution of the sharks who are about to devour you?

I'll put this bluntly. Do you have the balls to back up your belief? We all find ourselves in life threatening situations in one way or another. In the final moment how will you react? Will you believe?

God instilled us with a desire to seek Him and I believe that desire will break free once you're vulnerable enough. That desire will shatter your pride and ego when you are most vulnerable.

This is not a fear tactic, it's reality. What would you do if you found yourself in such a situation? Swallow your pride and believe?

Back for more? I guess when you get argued into a corner, you give up and start another "conversation". I find it fascinating that you think atheists are attention hounds.

I have the courage of my convictions. If I were in a situation like that, why would I grasp for someone else's fantasy? I really don't get it. Would you pray to Odin if you had ants in your pants? Your question is that silly.

If you'd like to get some insight into how atheists make decisions in desperate situations, watch the movie "Touching the Void". I won't spoil the story, but the guy didn't wet his pants and cry to Daddy.

Read up on Pat Tillman. Let's compare him to any of your Christian ministers as far as courage and sacrifice.

Do Christians have the courage of their convictions? Do they believe that crap in the Bible they thump? An eye for an eye? Do unto others? Christians have killed Jews and atheists by the millions. When will Christians pay for this lovely "gift" they have bestowed on humanity? Do you have the courage of your beliefs? I doubt it.

Mr.T-- My husband spent 20 years in the Navy as a rescue swimmer...and an atheist. On three different occasions his helicopter crashed. He encountered sharks (many times) and the very real prospect of death...still an atheist. My brother (Army) was an atheist before serving 2 tours in Iraq doing bomb disposable. Still an atheist. I'll put this bluntly. Your post is insulting and ignorant.

If this was an attempt to prove the value of "belief" it did the exact opposite. It proves that "belief" is based on fear and not much else. It's just way too scary to think of being out there on that ocean all alone.

I saw this true story on PBS "Touching the Void" about two mountain climbers who wanted to climb a mountain peak in the Andes that nobody had ever climbed. (I think their names were Joe and Simon?) It was bitterly cold with ice, snow and storms. They got to the top but one of them (I think Joe) broke his leg on the way down, and that is a very bad thing to happen since the person usually wouldn't survive. His partner (Simon) tries to lower him back down the mountain, because he knows he has to do it quickly in order to save both of their lives, so he is lowering Joe a long distance each time. There is a mishap that causes Joe to go off the mountain and he is hanging over a ledge of the mountain with a huge crevice below. (Simon) doesn't know there is a crevice or exactly what happened but the rope is very tight and he knows (Joe) is still hanging from it. Simon waited as long as he could in a terrible storm; nevertheless, eventually he had to cut the rope because it was pulling him off the mountain. When the rope is cut (Joe) with the broken leg falls into a deep crevice, but he lands on a ledge with deep snow, and lives. It is pitch black dark but he turns off his hat light to save the power. In the morning he sees a faint speck of light way up at the top and knows that it is the way out.

The man who had to cut the rope (Simon) gets back to base camp where the third man is waiting. Simon thinks that Joe is dead and is very distressed over what has happened. They decide not to tell anyone what happened and they burn Joe's clothes, but they decide not to leave the camp.

The last part of story is mostly about Joe's agonizing journey to get out of the crevice and then climb back down the mountain over jagged rocks back to the base camp. He actually did get back to the camp alive. At the end of the film Joe (the one that fell) reveals that he is an atheist. I was shocked that they even told his story. It doesn't end with giving god all the glory for saving Joe. Joe makes it very clear that he saved himself. Joe had always been an atheist. He never even thought about asking god for help. He relied upon himself and his own abilities to survive. This was really a great story of human endurance and I haven't done it justice because you have to see it to appreciate how good it really is.

What would be the justification for anyone to believe that a Superior Being would cause everyone to die in a plane crash and sharks would eat the one person who lived because they didn't worship it? I wish that this mentality was unusual, but it is not. It is common throughout this entire country. If other people don't walk in lockstep they try to make you pay. They also have a number of insults that they hurl at you and they are always the same one's. We're all egotistical (though they are the special one's). If you point out the errors in their idiotic beliefs that require little intelligence to debunk, you are trying to show someone that you are intelligent. Anyone who doesn't know that it's nonsense can't be very smart.

No matter how much you protest - like Don said - your belief is based on a reward and punishment system. The reason for that is there is no reason to doggedly follow any of it without reward and punishment because no one with an ounce of self-respect or intelligence would. Insults mean nothing to me because I know that I'm not currying favor by refusing to be indoctrinated, and I know that I am not considered "special" or a "deserving" person. Even if you were smart enough to see through this crap you would never admit it because you couldn't stand not being "special".

A Supreme Being made them superior to everyone else on earth, but they are not egotistical jackasses? It is interesting that the barbs you chunk at people are really far truer of you, and people like you.

I think giving credit for human achievement to someone's god diminishes the incredible things that they can do, and it undermines their achievements. Religion is a method of controlling the masses and undermining their independence and individuality, and that's all it is or ever will be, so just get over it.

You guys avoided the question and instead respond with references to adrenaline junkies.

"Adrenaline junkies appear to favor stressful activities for the release of epinephrine as a stress response."

I don't want to say anything that might be taken negatively towards people in the military.

But as for the guy with the broken leg in that movie. Give him 3-4 shots of whiskey and ask him how much he enjoyed being his dire situation. I bet you he loved every second of it. That dude LOVES to survive. You could see it. People like that are out for PRIDE AND GLORY. Personal glory!! Nothing can stop me!! ROAR!!!!!

On a side note, you atheists naturally make great lawyers and debaters. You could be on the wrong side and still present a strong case. Don B, Linda, are you lawyers? If not you should consider it.

Mr. T,

I answered your question. You didn't answer mine. Will you come to know Odin when you have ants in your pants?

Do you really believe that the billions of people who don't believe in your god will come crying to him if somehow they're facing their own mortality? What amazing hubris.

Thank you for your back-handed compliment about possibly being lawyers or debaters. Atheists try to base our lives on evidence and we value a debate. The worst that can happen is that somebody learns something. By contrast, when you're absolutely certain "the Jews" killed your messiah, it's easy to kill them. "Those who believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

As far as whether I'm on the wrong side, I welcome whatever evidence you, Christendom, and you god have, if any. If you don't have evidence, then perhaps you should consider that perhaps you're on the wrong side.

Don B. said **** "I answered your question. You didn't answer mine. Will you come to know Odin when you have ants in your pants? "****

If the only God I knew of was Odin then yes I would reach out to Odin in my time of need. You can call a dolphin 9843984 different names but in the end it is still a dolphin.

Don B. said **** "Do you really believe that the billions of people who don't believe in your god will come crying to him if somehow they're facing their own mortality? What amazing hubris." *****

He is not my God. He is our God. The God of every human on this planet. In your heart when you worship God, your desire is naturally to worship the living God that created this universe.

Let's say I'm 100% wrong about Christianity. At least God will see my intentions of fearing Him, worshiping Him and understanding that the only possible way to be with Him is with His will (Jesus).

Don B. ***** As far as whether I'm on the wrong side, I welcome whatever evidence you, Christendom, and you god have, if any. If you don't have evidence, then perhaps you should consider that perhaps you're on the wrong side.****

Once we pass away (gracefully and of old age) we'll have the objective evidence for proof of God. Until then I remain optimistic while atheists remain pessimistic.

I honestly think you guys would talk to God in the last moment. I think everyone will and some people just don't want to admit it. I believe it is "natural" because God programmed the desire into us. Of course I can't prove any of it but I can express the desire very clearly.

On a side note an atheist brought up a good point when he said our desire to survive and believe we are eternal stems from years and years of evolution. But then I responded that I believe evolution is theistic so it falls into place with my belief in God. It falls into the belief that evolution could be Gods programming method for bringing us about.

Mr. T,

Thank you for your replies.

You remind me of someone caught in a 419 or advanced fee scam (http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/nigeria.asp). You're sure that if you keep putting your time, energy, and money into it, you'll get a payout. What's interesting is that it doesn't seem to matter what version of the scam you get others into, as you're sure it's all run by the same criminal organization. Some of us can see through the scam and are not interested.

What you don't see with your "optimism" is that you're wasting the precious life you do have in hopes of some giant payout in the next life. I'm optimistic about THIS one. I'm living my life free of parasitic con men and their grand fantasies. I'm not pessimistic. I'm realistic. I feel sorry for someone who wastes their life on false hope.

If you really believed in this crap, you would be anxious to die and go claim your eternal orgasm. Your god loves a suck-up, apparently. You're already there. Though, you seem to be trying to find comfort in working to convince others you haven't wasted your only life chasing rainbows. I think that's your true motivation for participating on this forum.

You do realize that Odin, Shiva, Baal, Aphrodite, and Yahweh (etc, etc, etc) are all creations of man, don't you? They're all products of human imagination.

In the rest of your response, you're making up just-so stories about how your god does this or that. Again, "that which is advanced without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Please take your text and change "God" to "Fairies" and see how silly it sounds.

"You guys avoided the question and instead respond with references to adrenaline junkies."

So when given examples of how people DO face life-threatening situations without religion, you still can't admit you are wrong. You say you don't want to say anything against those in the military, but you demean the many fine atheists serving our country when you keep up this ridiculous farce of an argument.

Face it Mr. T, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. If you had ever faced real danger yourself you would not be so glib or so self-righteous when talking about how people handles themselves under pressure.

CDO I need to make this simple for you. Simple is always better.

Two sharks have bitten your legs off and now you are in the middle of the ocean with no hopes of survival. You are bleeding, life is slipping from your body. Within 30 seconds you will pass out from blood loss.

Will you call out to God or die with your atheistic beliefs?

Make it simple for me? Do you think I somehow failed to understand your point before? I have given my answer. You refuse to accept an answer you can not imagine making yourself. I am not trying to convince you to accept my reasoning as your own. But your efforts on this board are all an attempt to prove that the people here somehow are too stupid, lazy, immature or stubborn to know their own minds. When I call your posts insulting, that is why.

So, I will try one more time to answer in a way that possibly EVEN YOU might understand. If sharks bit me in half and I was dying in the middle of a vast lonely ocean, I WOULD NOT waste a breath calling out to imaginary space gods. It would never occur to me to do so. I might call out for the real people I have known who have cared for me and given me real solace in my life: my mother, husband, children. Or maybe I would freak out and curse at the sharks. Maybe I would scream for help from the ship I fell off but has sailed over the horizon. Maybe the blood loss and cold would leave me somewhat peaceful to gaze at the clouds and birds and sun in my last few moments. I react and respond to the world I know. I am trained in my reality. So why would I turn to a non-being, who has never done so much as take out my garbage, with my last breath? THE ANSWER IS I WOULDN'T.

Is that simple enough for you? Can you accept that different people might behave in a way you would not? Can you accept that someone who behaves differently might have a legitimate, well thought-out reason for doing so even if you don't agree with it?

I do not think you would say so even if you could.

I would die with my atheistic belief, why would I do otherwise?

The sad thing is that you are completely blind to the fact that people honestly do not put any belief whatsoever in your god. The fact you even started this thread shows that you simply don't get it.

The vast majority of atheists were likely raised in a Christian home, and therefore they have an understanding of the Christian religion. Many of us have taken the time to research into the history of the religion and the claims it makes, and have found no reason to believe it. We understand what the concept of god is all about, and it is laughable. Furthermore, it is "your" god, not "ours" as you stated in an earlier post.

So to answer your question bluntly, the only thing that would make an atheist cry out for god in a situation like that is hallucinations brought on by shock or oxygen deprivation.

Assuming that person's mental faculties were still in good working order, the thought going through an Atheists mind is "how on earth do I get out of the water alive"

Ill make it simple for you.

Your question insults not only us, but your god (yes, YOUR god. If i had a god, it would take a more direct role in human affairs).

In a roundabout way, you admit that the only reason that a non-believer would have to call on any god is out of a sense of fear and dread. What type of god is that?

And again, to answer your question in a simple word: No, I would not call out to god.

Now, please, make up some excuse about how I evaded your question.

Mr. T. > That dude LOVES to survive. You could see it. People like that are out for PRIDE AND GLORY. Personal glory!! Nothing can stop me!! ROAR!!!!!

People climb mountains for all kinds of reasons, some are doing exploration and some do scientific studies. Many times the things people have to do are dangerous, like going to the moon, but brave people do them. They do these things for the advancement of mankind. On the other hand religious fanatics have done nothing for mankind.

Mr. T. > "Adrenaline junkies appear to favor stressful activities for the release of epinephrine as a stress response."

Stressful activities like flying a plane? Your plane crash story reminded me of a very famous "adrenaline junkie" who crash-landed a plane. Captain Chesley Sullenberger was the pilot of the jet plane that a flock of geese crashed into disabling both engines during the ascent from LaGuardia airport. The plane had no thrust and was descending rapidly. The only place to land the large airliner was the river, which is where the plane was landed. Captain Sullenberger landed the plane near two ferry terminals and boats appeared within minutes to rescue the 155 passengers.

Almost as soon as the story was coming out the "it's a miracle" crap started flying. It was appalling to listen to this garbage being spread about something that I knew took extreme effort, courage, and skill. I knew that (landing on water) is one of the most technically challenging and seldom attempted feats in commercial aviation. A pilot that could successfully accomplish this action (water ditching) in a plane with no engines was an extraordinary individual. Captain Sullenberger took control of the plane from his first officer and successfully crash-landed a jet in the Hudson River. Total engine failure, low and heavy and over the most populous city in the country? Birds hit the plane soon after takeoff, and the pilot had to maneuver the plane over the skyscrapers of Manhattan and crash-land into the crowded Hudson River. The reason 155 people on board survived, was not a miracle, the plane was successfully crash-landed because of the captain's incredible piloting skills. Captain Sullenberger is a veteran with 40 years of experience, and the Ceo of a private air safety company, and he had studied the psychology of keeping airline crews functioning even in the face of crisis. The Captain immediately had to summon all his experience and everything he had practiced in that moment to save everyone on that plane. This was not a miracle Captain Sullenberger is one of the world's leading experts in the field of crisis piloting. This is an example of what an extraordinary pilot did and he deserves full credit. There have been a huge number of plane crashes because of being hit by birds that weren't so lucky before and since this happened.

You have a lot of fan mail waiting for you Mr.T. What happened did you decide to try atheism again?

Hello, Mr T:

I have actually been in life-threatening situations (and not just one) where I thought I was going to die. Not once did I ever begin to seek "God" in some inter-personal-intellectual search for "him." Not once.

I was raised Roman Catholic and ALL of my relatives are religious... All 100 or more of them. Some are preachers and sunday school teachers. I also attended Baptist Bible school camps. I am well aware of the "being saved" panorama and I was actually "saved." So, I get it.

However, my career (now retired) was one of the most dangerous jobs a person could have. I have watched three people die and have had two people die in my arms. I have performed CPR on several people, saving some and losing some. My own life was nearly taken a half dozen times and not once did I search or seek my "maker."

I am an Atheist of Atheist's. There is no God. Period. I have no doubt that there is no God, even though there is no way to actually prove it 100%.

Instead, what I felt when my life was nearly taken several times, I noticed that my awareness of everything around me was magnified tremendously and my senses "slowed things down." My coordination increased dramatically and my sense of survival became nearly primitive and instinctive. It was anything but a spiritual experience. It was always an evolutionary-like certainty experience. Much like getting burned by something hot. It is instant and very clear. There is no uncertainty or doubt. It is "now" and it is real. There is nothing spiritual in the senses.

That is my answer to your question. However, I might add, when I do die someday... I hope to have several episodes of The Atheist Experience playing in front of me on a large TV screen so I can, at least, die peacefully and content, and not in some other manner of being surrounded by delusional people who would be inclined to sing hymns of superstition and chorus anthems of religious righteousness in my presence. Or, perhaps, to encourage me to make amends with my "maker" and that sort of thing.

Thanks for the answer Hal. That is pretty hardcore. Now let me ask you this.

Do you believe in percentages? What if there is a 2% chance you are wrong? Or are you 100% sure in your belief because of objective evidence? Can you show me this objective evidence which ensures you are thorough in your decision?

Allow me to jump ahead. Neither you or I have objective evidence for our cases. Is it "wise" to reject a maker when you aren't sure?

I've come to learn that balance wins out over one sided attitudes. Embrace both science & belief. It's balanced and realistic.

There isn't one thing about belief that is compatible with science, and that is why they burned books and condemned science when they first started spreading religion to the masses. Investigation and finding answers is not compatible with any religion.

Also, I find people who make self-aggrandizing statements simply boring. I think that this dog and pony show should be moved to an apologist's message board.

It's amazing that boring people never realize that they are boring.

Pi, my motivation is not to entertain you but push your limits, shatter your pride and ego, and convict you of sin. I'm trying to show you how one sided and pessimistic your atheist nature is.

Object orientated computer programming is modeled after the rules of the universe because the rules of the universe are organized and maintain measurable consistency.

Objects (Tree, Human, Atom, etc) Rules (Speed of light, Gravity) Functions (Feeding yourself) Routines (Weather) Triggers (Emotional Response, Instinct) Codes (DNA, Genes) Data Storage (Brain)

As an atheist you see functionality without purpose, without logic, without reason. No offense but who is the fool? Science requires that we be logical and use our reason, but then as soon as we imply that our existence may be the result of logic & reason you are quick to dismiss it out of fear for answering to a higher power. Let us conclude then that atheists are cowards. Am I wrong? They don't call me Mr. T for nothing.

I expect an attack from you from this, but make it good and don't bore me.

Your view of Atheism is poisoned by your theistic views. I cant really blame you - to believe in a god is to have to change your very outlook on the universe. It would be impossible for you to appreciate the sheer chance and happenstance that resulted in life on this planet. It would be inconceivable for you to view other people as a reason to live a moral life without threat of ramification from authority.

We just don't believe in any god/gods. It is as simple as that. We aren't saying that they don't exist, just that evidence has not been presented to believe in them.

I will agree that the rules of the universe are organized and maintain consistency. That is where our agreement ends.

Your entire statement of what we atheists see and believe is pulled directly out of your rectal database and is without merit, hence not worth responding to in a detailed manner. You, at the end, say you expect an attack. This is not because of the strength of your intellect (seriously, i chuckled at that possibility) but because your entire post is a groundless attack against atheism. You made an attack and put up a preemptive shield against being counterattacked.

Also, nobody calls you Mr T. but you. Please don't pretend that you are some intellectual giant when you believe in fairy tales without proof.

I am not great at debating, so I take the fifth.

I guess by your logic, then if there's a 2% possibility that God exists and he'll torture you for all eternity because he's a Supreme Masochist and wacks off just thinking about giving pain, it's in your best interest to be a toady suckup because infinity times 2% is still infinity. According to the Christian extortion racket, it's in your best interests to be a mindless follower and tithe.

Anybody who has been around Christian thugs like you has heard of Pascal's Wager. It's faulty reasoning. Watch Atheist Experience episode #493 (http://www.atheist-experience.com/archive/?full=1#table) for a dozen or more reasons why it's wrong. Pascal himself thought it was little more than a veiled threat to get people to go to church, where he thought they would be indoctrinated by osmosis or somesuch.

You also need to learn about the burden of proof. You're the one making wild claims about gods/makers. It is YOUR burden to provide evidence for those claims. It is NOT the burden of the would-be dupe to refute your wild claims.

To get back to the 419 scam analogy, when someone is solicited from Nigeria to (allegedly) aid in the transfer of millions, it's not the burden of the e-mail recipient to prove it's a scam. It is the burden of the person making the claims to prove that it is not a scam. It's perfectly valid to hit "delete". That's what atheists are doing with the scam of Christianity.

Hi Don,

---To get back to the 419 scam analogy, when someone is solicited from Nigeria to (allegedly) aid in the transfer of millions, it's not the burden of the e-mail recipient to prove it's a scam. It is the burden of the person making the claims to prove that it is not a scam. It's perfectly valid to hit "delete". That's what atheists are doing with the scam of Christianity.---

That is a good one! ...I don't need to be a great debater. I am glad you are though! I "second" what you just said. :)

What's odd (in my mind, anyway) is when I was doing CPR on a four-year-old little girl and I could not bring her back... I told her mother that I was sorry. Her sarcastic response to me (although she was likely in trauma) was, "well, it's not your daughter... is it."

And even then I did not feel compelled to pray for the girls soul. It just isn't there! And I was raised Catholic and Baptist. And then there is the issue with the mother... she wasn't praying either.

What's worse, she had 6 children in her car, none of them buckled in a seatbelt, and when she rolled her car end-over-end, all 6 children were flung out of the car, all over the place... at 3:00am. I had a heck of time trying to find all of them. That's when I found the four-year-old and started CPR on her.

What gets me, I think, is that I went through a lot of this sort of thing and it is as real as it gets. Yet, when others ask me about me being an Atheist... for some reason they interpret Atheism as being false and their religious belief's as being real.

Well, I don't think I am explaining myself very well. I know that I "get it" though. Superstitious belief has nothing to do with anything! It is so... not real.

Mr. T.,

My apologies. I meant to say that your god is a sadist, not a masochist. If you want to additionally assert that your god killed himself to appease himself for his own mistake and to follow a rule (blood sacrifice) that he made up, then I guess he's a masochist, too. See http://www.atheist-community.org/atheisteve/?id=42

If there were a more horrible god that humans had invented, would you chase after it and be its toady? Is it a lust for power on your part, or just sucking up to the most horrible thing so that you can avoid its (pretend) wrath?

I understand pascal's wager. As a Christian I'm so glad for pascal's wager. Pascal made an excellent contribution to Christianity with his observation. If you believe in God only out of wager that is disrespectful to the Lord. You must truly believe from the heart.

Don said "You're the one making wild claims".......

There are 6,692,030,277 people on this planet. Every one of them has knowledge of three things:

1. God 2. Good 3. Evil

Is it a wild claim that each one of us ponder where we go when we die? Isn't that obvious indication that this desire was programmed into us via the programmed, complex, organized function that is evolution?

If you read my earlier post, you will see that "human greed" is responsible for the 419 scam and not Christianity. We must first "delete" human greed but that is not possible without eliminating pride and ego first. Atheism demands stubbornness, pride and ego so that won't be happening. There are more atheists in this world than you think and many who pretend to be Christian.

Christianity demands that you sacrifice your pride and ego and bow to the Lord. If more people did that you would see a decline in every negative aspect of life. But we can't, we're sinners!

Mr T.,

You apparently didn't get the part about Pascal's Wager being a bogus pile of crap.

You ignored most of my posting, so I'm going to ignore most of yours. You clearly have no interest in learning.

On knowledge of three things: Bullshit. You're playing a stupid mind game. You're claiming any supernatural belief is evidence for the particular god you believe in. The fact that nobody agrees on supernatural claims is evidence they're not based in reality. "Evil" is a loaded concept that is based on supernatural superstitions. There is only the potential that humans have to harm each-other. There is no need to make up stories about devils and hobgoblins. Ditto for "sin".

Don B. Said **** I guess by your logic, then if there's a 2% possibility that God exists and he'll torture you for all eternity because he's a Supreme Masochist and wacks off just thinking about giving pain, ****

Our bodies have a pain sensory mechanism. If I put my hand on the burning stove I will experience pain so that my body knows to take my hand away. God gave us this pain sensory mechanism to prevent us from hurting ourselves. However some humans who abuse their free will have learned to exploit other peoples pain sensory mechanism for their own gain. This is not the Lords fault, this is our own fault for being horrible sinners.

Don B. said **** it's in your best interest to be a toady suckup because infinity times 2% is still infinity. According to the Christian extortion racket, it's in your best interests to be a mindless follower and tithe. ****

You are labeling all religious organizations as corrupt. They are not. The next time a major fire is burning in your area open up google maps and note all the churches opening their doors to help people in their time of need. However I agree that there are some religious organizations who have their eyes on the tithe. They want to never be questioned to secure the tithe. Look at benny hinn, that sob has a 10 million dollar home. I wonder where he got the money from? Hmmmm.. But I won't let a scammer like him get in the way of my belief in God. I've learned to separate the actions of man from the Lord.

Don B. *** Anybody who has been around Christian thugs like you has heard of Pascal's Wager. It's faulty reasoning. Watch Atheist Experience episode #493 (http://www.atheist-experience.com/archive/?full=1#table) for a dozen or more reasons why it's wrong. Pascal himself thought it was little more than a veiled threat to get people to go to church, where he thought they would be indoctrinated by osmosis or some such. ****

I'm watching this now, very interesting so far. Interesting enough where I'll watch it with my atheist friend tonight when i go to his house :)

Don B. **** You also need to learn about the burden of proof. You're the one making wild claims about gods/makers. It is YOUR burden to provide evidence for those claims. It is NOT the burden of the would-be dupe to refute your wild claims. ****

There will never be objective evidence for God, but does that mean the 6,692,030,277 in the world should then ignore what their body and mind is telling them about God?

Don B. **** To get back to the 419 scam analogy, when someone is solicited from Nigeria to (allegedly) aid in the transfer of millions, it's not the burden of the e-mail recipient to prove it's a scam. It is the burden of the person making the claims to prove that it is not a scam. It's perfectly valid to hit "delete". That's what atheists are doing with the scam of Christianity. ****

I responded to this. I understand what you're saying here. But isn't human greed responsible for this?

Mr. Toady,

I've always thought that many Christians were drawn to the belief because they get off on the idea of other people being tortured. Supposedly, in heaven, you can spend eternity watching while you have your perpetual orgasm. The rapture wackjobs seems to be part of the same crowd: traitors to humanity. You all love your god more than your fellow man. You'll gladly screw over anyone and everyone to suck up to your god for your perpetual orgasm.

I'm not labeling religious organizations as corrupt. I'm saying that if the Christian god is the author of morality (as is falsely claimed), that this god created all humans (that is falsely claimed), that Christians want to follow him (as is claimed), and that prayer works as a communication mechanism between this alleged god and his toadies, then explain to me how ANY Christian organization is doing anything wrong. Why do nations that believe in god have higher sexually transmitted diseases, infant mortality rates, murder rates, abortion rates, teen pregnancy rates, and lower happiness? The answer is that there is no such god. The fact that Christians can't agree on what is right and wrong is not my problem. It's a fatal flaw with Christianity. The con artist ministers and pedophile priests are a Christian problem. Why can't you and your god fix it? The answer is obvious to me: It's a scam.

I admit that there is some good in building community and promoting altruism. Let's look at your fire thing more closely, shall we? Did your moral accounting include the fact that all of those Churches get free fire protection from their cities? Because those churches don't pay taxes, they are parasitic on the infrastructure paid for by non-believers. They are given this privilege because they are expected to do service to the community. Did your moral accounting include the fact that the people helped are members of the church? There's nothing wrong with it. It's more of a trade and not charity. Did your moral accounting include the fact that nearly all Christian charity includes proselytism? That the believers think they're going to better their chances with god by helping someone? That is, what you're calling "charity" is actually using people to advance a bogus theology? There are many non-religious charities that do great works, as well.

Now for the bigger picture: How does your church's little bake sale (or whatever) stack up against the millions of Jews, Pagans, and non-believers your religion has murdered and tortured through the centuries? How does it compare against the persecution of gays, subjugation of women, and ruthless conquest? How does it repair the burning of the Library of Alexandria, the utter uselessness of the Dark Ages (when Christianity ruled the world)? How does it compare to the suppression of medical advances, such as the study of anatomy? Even today, Christianity is at the forefront of suppressing stem cell research and teaching of evolution. There are many more problems. When you load up the scales, Christianity has a gigantic debt to pay.

I know that for you, the bake sale is more important because you don't feel any sense of responsibility. You only see credits on the Christian account. This is because you are ignorant of your religion. The leaders of your religion lie to you because your ignorance is what allows them to make their money. They preach against greed, then pass around the collection plate so that you give up you money. Meanwhile, they're not telling you how evil their little con game really is. Atheist know this and WE WILL GLADLY TELL YOU WITHOUT TAKING ANY OF YOUR MONEY. This is why Christian leaders hate atheists. We tell the truth.

Finally, on the 419 scam, I'm not sure you understood me. I was comparing your religion to the scam and you to someone who forwards the scam e-mails to that they could reach a wider audience.

Hi Mr T, You made a claim " There are 6,692,030,277 people on this planet. Every one of them has knowledge of three things:" 1. God 2. Good 3. Evil

You're so wrong there. Look at the entire continent of Africa. We Africans, without exception, believe in gods, spirits or those of our ancestors. Plural. So do the Aboriginals of Oz, the Native Americans, Eskimos and all other people who haven't been contaminated by Christian missionaries, all over the world. Even those who were brainwashed by christians, always revert to our original beliefs when facing death. I know this, as I've walked into a pride of 9 lionesses in the pitch dark, one night, and only due to instinct and careful, silent, backtracking, did I escape being their dinner. The Zulu

More stupidity! I want to debate you in a rational manner, but each time i read your posts, i feel as if the holy spirit is moving me (that's sarcastic speak for "getting dumber"). Onto your post.

1. "There are 6,692,030,277 people on this planet. Every one of them has knowledge of three things: 1. God 2. Good 3. Evil" is a baseless assertion, completely wrong, and wholly unprovable. Please, until you can show me the stats that back this up other than your rectal database, dont bother.

2. "Is it a wild claim that each one of us ponder where we go when we die?" No, it is not a wild claim. Every human being is a sentient, mortal creature capable of processing complex thoughts and envisioning multiple scenarios. Is it any wonder that some people are uncomfortable with the idea of their eventual death and would imagine a way to escape it? is it any wonder that some people would actually buy into this idea to make themselves feel better about being mortal? It is not a god thing, it is merely a desire to escape from death. Stop being a simpleton.

3. Idiot. The 419 scam is a metaphor. It is not being said that Christianity is responsible for the 419 scam, but that it is a parallel. Not surprised...if you're too stupid to grasp reality, you're probably too stupid for metaphor. Moreover, you don't know what atheism demands (hint: a brain and an unwillingness to accept things without proof) so stop with your broad mischaracterizations.

4. When you said "Christianity demands that you sacrifice your pride and ego and bow to the Lord", you should have said "logic and reason" in the place of "pride and ego" because youre here fighting the truth tooth and nail because your EGO and PRIDE will not allow you to surrender.

5. to imply that if more people were theists (especially of the christian sort) that "you would see a decline in every negative aspect of life " is provably false. Please, name ONE reason that your statement is true so that I can destroy it with my massive atheist logic.

Hey T, here's a 'test'.

Suppose someone walks up to you with a double barrel shotgun, jams it in your gut and asks you if you believe in god, the understanding being that if you answer in the affirmative, then the trigger is going to be pulled. What would you do?

If you answer no, then you fail the test.

If you answer yes, then there would be one less voice of prattling idiocy to assault the ears of the rational. Everyone's a winner!

You're asking me if I would die for the Lord? I'd like to think yes but I've yet to be tested in such a situation. Hopefully an honest answer is better than a brave one. I may succumb or I may not.

Hah so you think believers are all idiots? I think you are just mad at the people who exploit Christianity for personal gain (atheists in disguise as Christians).

Actually, I think that christianity - christendom, if you will - is composed of people of various levels of intelligence, from the profoundly impaired to the profoundly gifted, who subscribe to a particular brand of idiocy. Or, to be more diplomatic, a particular form of ignorance.

Nor am I so concerned with people who exploit christianity for personal gain. Some people exploit any system for personal gain whilst others hold nothing but the most ingenuous regard for ethics. This is human nature and this is common knowledge. What does rankle me is how, from it's very inception, christianity was constructed to be a controlling force in society. Constantine knew a good thing when he saw it.

It seems to me that you are almost an atheist in disguise as a christian yourself. From what I understand from your other posts, you espouse evolution as part of god's method of creation. But isn't that in direct conflict with what the bible says? If the bible is inerrant and literal, then the genesis account must be true. Genesis tells us that the earth came before the sun. And so did plants, which, of course, rely on sunlight for photosynthesis. Also, that account states that trees were created before the swimming creatures, whereas evolution indicates that all life first occurred in the oceans long before any life (including trees) existed on land. So which is it? I will admit that I am assuming you are a fundamentalist who believes in the inerrancy of the bible; if so, then you are holding contradictory beliefs. But, perhaps you are a bit more liberal and believe that the bible is to be taken literally at some times and symbolically at other times. If so, then how do you discriminate between the literal and the symbolic?

WWTD said **** It seems to me that you are almost an atheist in disguise as a christian yourself. From what I understand from your other posts, you espouse evolution as part of god's method of creation. But isn't that in direct conflict with what the bible says? If the bible is inerrant and literal, then the genesis account must be true. Genesis tells us that the earth came before the sun. And so did plants, which, of course, rely on sunlight for photosynthesis. Also, that account states that trees were created before the swimming creatures, whereas evolution indicates that all life first occurred in the oceans long before any life (including trees) existed on land. So which is it? I will admit that I am assuming you are a fundamentalist who believes in the inerrancy of the bible; if so, then you are holding contradictory beliefs. But, perhaps you are a bit more liberal and believe that the bible is to be taken literally at some times and symbolically at other times. If so, then how do you discriminate between the literal and the symbolic?*****

I view genesis with the eyes of a computer programmer/engineer since creation and programming/engineering share the same ideals. There are two ways to program. Procedural programming (old thinking) or object orientated programming (new thinking).

Procedural programming is going line by line, step by step in order. Where as object orientated programming is first creating different objects and once all created you then create functions/routines that allow these objects to interact. We've learned that OOP is vastly superior to procedural programming and a lot more efficient. Engineering is very OOP in most cases as well.

It makes more sense that the Lord would use OOP methods instead of procedural. If the Lord is the master programmer then why can't he simply sustain the life of a tree or plant until he brings everything together in a final program or final engineering project? Having programmed virtual world simulations and assembling mechanical devices brought me to this conclusion.

On a side note, you are right there are still certain conflicts in the Bible that have raised doubt on my part which is why I'm not an evangelical. Although I'd like to believe that the Bible is 100% inerrant, it's hard to agree with that given that man was in charge of writing it.

W.W.T.D. said, "It seems to me that you are almost an atheist in disguise as a christian yourself. From what I understand from your other posts, you espouse evolution as part of god's method of creation."

Only if you think that "theistic evolution" (creationism) or Intelligent Design is an almost atheist view? "Theistic evolution" is just another attempt to use pseudo-science to try to fix the flawed creation story in the bible. There is nothing scientific about Mr. T's pseudo-science. Theistic evolution, creationism and Intelligent Design are all the same. The advocates are trying to use a scientific theory (evolution) to promote creationism. They know that they cannot get their pseudo-science (religion masquerading as science) into the education system if they admitted it is creationism. They know that the fossil record and DNA supports evolution, so, instead of opposing evolution they try to use it to prove pseudo-science with a designer. Some of them have adapted creationism (theistic evolution) to acknowledge evolution thorough a new form of pseudo-science that claims that god created evolution and guided its mechanism. This is not anything scientific or intelligent.

Mr. T said, "On a side note an atheist brought up a good point when he said our desire to survive and believe we are eternal stems from years and years of evolution. But then I responded that I believe evolution is theistic so it falls into place with my belief in God. It falls into the belief that evolution could be Gods programming method for bringing us about."

This is the theistic evolution (ID) viewpoint that concedes that the earth might be billions of years old, but claims that life forms required specific design. There is no theory of "theistic evolution" (ID) or creation that has been submitted as a theory to the scientific community for falsification. The fossil record (intermediate fossils) makes their claims ridiculous, scientific evidence does not support any (creationist's) claims.

If a designer were involved in evolution it would have been an ongoing process that took millions of years with the designer creating an incredible series of animals, and some that went extinct because of defects. Why did the designer create forms of life that were so defective that they could not evolve to higher forms of life?

The E. Coli's flagellum was used as an exhibit of Intelligent Design, since their pseudo-scientists didn't believe that the flagellum evolved. However, the real scientists have proven that there are lots of intermediate forms, all doing something useful - if not propelling their host along. The flagellum, in fact, did evolve. If that were not true (real scientists) would have falsified it, because unlike pseudo-scientists the real scientists try to prove something is false every possible way they can before they accept it as a theory. This is exactly what they have done with evolution for almost 200 years, and at this time they have accepted evolution as a theory and a fact.

Scientists methodically traced the E. Coli metabolism and the basic functions. They found that it is an organism that can perform every essential function of life without a nervous system or nucleus, negotiating its needs for food, habitat and even sex with its spinning flagella.

There are thousands of species that span many millions of years, with many intermediate stages (this defies creationism) no species ever just emerged - they evolved. The first mammals evolved from reptiles. All of the mammals evolved from mammal-like reptiles. Scientists find them in the fossil record in the order that they first appeared. This is consistent with evolution theory not creationism (ID). At the bottom are simple life forms, and as they moved up, the fossil record begins to diversify, and includes fish, then reptiles, then mammals, and finally, humans. Many fossils have been found that reveal there were forms of life with both man and ape features.

A creator using evolution to bring about "creation" would have to bring about "creation" innumerable times, and for a very long period of time. It would be an on going project that would allow little time to perform "other miracle."

Nothing that Mr. T or anyone has written (in any pseudonym) indicates any actual knowledge of science. Theistic Evolution or (ID) is a creative new way of marketing creationism. More and more scientific discoveries have proven that the creation story in the bible is impossible. Theistic evolution (creation pseudo-science) won't fix those errors. (ID) thought they could bring creationism into the academic community through pseudo-science by not naming the designer god. That is why no intelligent design theorist has ever included an agent or purpose in any attempt at a scientific theory of design. It is a well-known scientific fact that the Universe and life in the Universe evolved over a very long period of time, and was not (Intelligently Designed) or created. ID'ers have never produced any scientific theory that proves a designer.

W.W.T.D. said, "I am assuming you are a fundamentalist who believes in the inerrancy of the bible; if so, then you are holding contradictory beliefs. But, perhaps you are a bit more liberal and believe that the bible is to be taken literally at some times and symbolically at other times. If so, then how do you discriminate between the literal and the symbolic?"

Mr. T. has been shown the errors in god's word many times on this message board. There is nothing in Mr. T.'s viewpoint (theistic evolution) or his (pseudo-science) that would lead anyone (atheist or not) to believe that Mr. T knows a thing about real science, or that he has a liberal attitude. I think he has watched too many re-runs of corny 80's sitcoms staring Kirk Cameron.

Mr T said, "He is not my God. He is our God. The God of every human on this planet. In your heart when you worship God, your desire is naturally to worship the living God that created this universe."

That's really liberal and scientific? This person has tried to prove that there is a god with everything but the kitchen sink. An example of Mr. T.'s viewpoint: A plane crashed into the ocean and killed all but one person who was being eaten alive by sharks. If they would then cry out to some "god" (he thinks) that would prove there is a god? No, it would prove that their god couldn't save any of them. I think that this person can't stand the idea that there are people who don't cave in under threats. That's why he thought that this kind of coercion would work on us. I'm sad to inform him that I have known some very devout Christians that had very awful things happen to them, but I was not happy about it, and never used it to convince them to become atheists. For what reason would anyone try to use this kind of blackmail to pressure someone into a belief that they have clearly rejected, is it because they have so much to offer?

Mr. T doesn't think that anyone has the right to disagree with him, and he is incapable of comprehending that we do have the right to disagree. I think he is just desperately trying to prove something to himself.

Object-oriented programming (OOP) is a computer science term used to characterize a programming language.

Computational evolutionary biology requires familiarity with at least the basics of molecular biology; elementary probability theory, calculus and differential equations; and some facility in at least one programming language and/or mathematical modeling. Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.

What Mr. T has written indicates little understanding of evolutionary biology.

Linda has launched a full scale attack. I need time to respond to this onslaught.

Did i order another stupid sandwich, because you just delivered one.

Your answer is theist cowardice.

If your god was real, then he should stop the gun from going off, especially if it was because you professed belief. The amount of faith that takes is much larger than a grain of sand (and thats all it takes to move mountains right?)

If the gun DID go off, then your god wanted you in heaven with him and it was all part of his plan, so why would you be afraid at all? After all, the killer did you a favor and sent you to your eternal slumber party with your creator. You win!

But, odds are that you would drop that belief in a heartbeat because for all your talk about how your reward is in heaven, its strange how much you all struggle against your inevitable death. You would think that Christians would be trying to get killed by the truckload (its not suicide if someone else kills you).

Finally, the idea that people who exploit Christianity are atheists in disguise is a fallacious argument. What determines a christian, and how can you tell if someone is a believer? Is it their works? If so, then okay - your argument holds merit. Sadly, your book says that it isn't works, just belief. How can you prove or disprove what someone believes? Do you just decide that someone is or isn't a christian based on how you feel about their actions? What if i decide that YOU aren't a christian because you don't meet the minimum intelligence level, or because your hair is red, or because you use the internet?

You come with nothing but accusations and baseless arguments. Please, do better.

In a word to this entire reply: FALSE. I will answer your questions first.

1. Do you believe in percentages? Yes...sort of. Math is in the realm of science, thus knowable and understandable. It does not require belief.

2. What if there is a 2% chance you are wrong? So there is a 98% chance that I am right. The percentages are apparently in my favor.

3. Or are you 100% sure in your belief because of objective evidence? Comparatively, few things in this universe are certain. When you use the word "belief" that would imply the acceptance of an idea without actual facts. While belief may be certain, it is also often incorrect (let that run in your head for a bit). Long answer short, no.

4. Can you show me this objective evidence which ensures you are thorough in your decision? You're making the case for a god. You have to provide the proof. Lack of evidence strengthens our position. To win this debate, we merely need to refute the evidence you put forth (which has, to this date, been nothing).

5. Is it "wise" to reject a maker when you aren't sure? Its wise to reject paying tribute (either actual tribute or metaphorical tribute) to a being that has not proven its good will towards me, much less its very existence. Its the equivalent to you worshiping the flying spaghetti monster. Silly right? At least I've seen pictures of the flying spaghetti monster and I know that its malicious.

Now, for some comments of my own.

1. You state that "Neither you or I have objective evidence for our cases" as if it is OUR job to prove the non-existence of something. That would be akin to me telling you to prove unicorns don't exist. Can you prove the existence of ANY deity? If so, please show your work.

What you have tried is called shifting the burden of proof, and it has been used (unsuccessfully) by many theists smarter than yourself. Try again.

2. You say that you have "come to learn that balance wins out over one sided attitudes" while demonstrating a one-sided attitude (that there is a god, and that the idea of there being one is impossible). Go go gadget compartmentalized thinking, eh?

3. You CANNOT embrace science and belief. They are not polite bedfellows. Science, by its very nature, will trump belief the way that the astronomer trumps the astrologist, the way that the chemist trumps the alchemist, the way the doctor trumps the witch doctor. Belief is invested in proliferation of ignorance whereas science is the great emancipator of the human mind.

It is NOT balanced and realistic - it is an attempt to seem compromising when your argument for theism has failed.

Mr. T,

Here's a counter question: You are sick. You don't know what the problem is. You have time to think and reason. What do you do? Since God is all-powerful and all-knowing, do you go to a Church or pray for a cure? Or do you go to a doctor or hospital?

Nearly everyone who claims to be faithful does the latter. Millions of people make this decision every year. They place their lives on medical knowledge--not con artist religious leaders. There are no true believers in hospitals.

When medicine doesn't work out, they start back with their mumbo jumbo. Chaplains roam around the hospitals stealing credit for god for what should be properly credited to the hard work of science and medical research. Look how the Vatican took a woman who was being successfully treated for tuberculosis and making the false claim that praying to the recently deceased mother Teresa cured the woman's alleged CANCER (which she didn't have). The church was happy to lead the gullible to make Teresa a saint and keep the money flowing.

So, Mr. T. It seems that when there's deliberate thought involved, people choose reality over fantasy--even when they claim to believe.

Don B. said **** Here's a counter question: You are sick. You don't know what the problem is. You have time to think and reason. What do you do? Since God is all-powerful and all-knowing, do you go to a Church or pray for a cure? Or do you go to a doctor or hospital? ****

I don't expect God to intervene and solve our problems. It doesn't make any sense for God to just come down here and baby us. Our time here on earth is for gaining knowledge of good and evil. To answer your question, I would pray to Him and show Him my strength and faith in Him. Then I would honor him by seeking treatment.

God gave us the ability to solve problems. By seeking treatment I show him that we've passed one of his tests. When his children (scientists) find cures to ailments they honor God by putting their free will to noble use. If a scientist contributes his cure as an atheist, I will accept his cure as a blessing from God despite the scientists pride and ego. I thank both the man and God for it was God that gave him his intelligence in the first place.

If God were to cure my illness then he might as well pay my bills, buy me a new car, and feed everyone in the world and stop all suffering. Oh wait then we'll all be mindless idiots. God has a purpose for us and the first step is to know and overcome suffering. Scientists have been blessed with the gift of intelligence, but like beauty will it give them a swelled head? Hmmm?

Don B. **** Nearly everyone who claims to be faithful does the latter. Millions of people make this decision every year. They place their lives on medical knowledge--not con artist religious leaders. There are no true believers in hospitals. ****

First I need to show you that I understand exactly what you are saying. You are saying that people who submit to treatment are abandoning God. You have it backwards. Believers and non-believers need to understand our purpose here on earth which is to tackle good and evil. To know and overcome suffering ON OUR OWN and to show God that we are his strong and loyal children. Anyone expecting God to just solve our problems is a complete and utter moron who fails to understand the Bible in every possible way.

Don B. **** When medicine doesn't work out, they start back with their mumbo jumbo. Chaplains roam around the hospitals stealing credit for god for what should be properly credited to the hard work of science and medical research. Look how the Vatican took a woman who was being successfully treated for tuberculosis and making the false claim that praying to the recently deceased mother Teresa cured the woman's alleged CANCER (which she didn't have). The church was happy to lead the gullible to make Teresa a saint and keep the money flowing. ****

Everyone has a test here on Earth. For a scientist it is to not only give the hard work and dedication you mentioned, but to not let the power of intelligence give him a swelled head.

Catholicism is a cult, they are corrupt in most cases and make up their own rules to get the MONEY like you said.

Scientists honor the Lord when they problem solve and find cures to overcome disease and sickness. It was Gods gift that allows us to problem solve. Some scientists are blessed further with higher intelligence. Will he let his pride and ego get the best of him or will he continue to honor God? Intelligence like beauty is a test and a gift. Will you let it swell your head?

Don B. **** So, Mr. T. It seems that when there's deliberate thought involved, people choose reality over fantasy--even when they claim to believe. ****

The reality is God gave us free will and with this power we can solve problems to ease suffering. When we overcome problems and continue to submit to the Lord we are fulfilling our purpose here on Earth.

I will finish with this. If you are an atheist scientist, then you have failed Gods test. God has given these people a higher level of thinking, more intelligence and in return God gets no submission or thanks from these people? That is horrible. But I will gladly accept their cures as a gift from God since it was God who gave them their ability to problem solve at a higher level. (Hint: This paragraph is supposed to test how much pride and ego you have, if you feel any type of sting when reading you should strongly consider that you have an ego problem. I used to be an atheist like you guys, I know how you think. Will you at least try to understand how I think? Once you do you will become a Christian.)

Mr. T said, "I don't expect God to intervene and solve our problems. It doesn't make any sense for God to just come down here and baby us."

Nope, nobody should expect "god" to solve any problems since he never has, even so, it might prove that he existed if he did. Science has solved all the problems. The bible couldn't even identify the problems.

Mr. T. said, "Our time here on earth is for gaining knowledge of good and evil. To answer your question, I would pray to Him and show Him my strength and faith in Him. Then I would honor him by seeking treatment.

Then you're in luck, if we are only here to learn the difference in good and evil, because that's about all you know. You would seek treatment because you know that there is no evidence that prayer has ever healed a known and diagnosed disease.

Mr. T. said, "God gave us the ability to solve problems. By seeking treatment I show him that we've passed one of his tests."

Chronicles 16:12 - In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa was afflicted with a disease in his feet. Though his disease was severe, even in his illness he did not seek help from the lord, but only from the physicians.

Mr. T said, "When his children (scientists) find cures to ailments they honor God by putting their free will to noble use. If a scientist contributes his cure as an atheist, I will accept his cure as a blessing from God despite the scientists pride and ego."

Then why did god's minions replace science with superstition, burn libraries and murder scholars? Some were tortured to death. Christians were always really insecure lunatics.

Mr. T. said, " I thank both the man and God for it was God that gave him his intelligence in the first place."

Can you produce proof of a "god' or some evidence that we can examine. Then present us with "evidence" that this god intervened with the evolution of intelligence. Then you will have something, but as of right now, you don't.

Mr. T. said, "If God were to cure my illness then he might as well pay my bills, buy me a new car, and feed everyone in the world and stop all suffering. Oh wait then we'll all be mindless idiots. God has a purpose for us and the first step is to know and overcome suffering. Scientists have been blessed with the gift of intelligence, but like beauty will it give them a swelled head? Hmmm?"

"He" doesn't want a bunch of spoiled brats; that's why he is allowing the homeless people around the world to starve and freeze to death, while rewarding the greedy imperialists who brought about their suffering. I think that there is an abundance of mindless idiots right now, and you're right, god has never done a thing for any of them.

Mr. T. First I need to show you that I understand exactly what you are saying. You are saying that people who submit to treatment are abandoning God. You have it backwards. Believers and non-believers need to understand our purpose here on earth, which is to tackle good, and evil.

"Good" and "evil" it's called "mental illness" and there are all kinds.

Mr. T. said, "To know and overcome suffering ON OUR OWN and to show God that we are his strong and loyal children. Anyone expecting God to just solve our problems is a complete and utter moron who fails to understand the Bible in every possible way.

The bible encourages people to be leaners. It's god that is strong not man. It's "His" strength not your own. Leaning on His ability and not on your own. You replace self-reliance with God's ability. It's dependency on god. Self-confidence reduces dependency on god. You should try to kick the habit.

Mr. T. said, "Everyone has a test here on Earth. For a scientist it is to not only give the hard work and dedication you mentioned, but to not let the power of intelligence give him a swelled head."

People who don't think the world is 6,ooo years old are in danger of developing swelled heads.

Mr. T. said, "Catholicism is a cult, they are corrupt in most cases and make up their own rules to get the MONEY like you said."

Christianity is a cult that started with Catholicism.

Mr. T. said, "Scientists honor the Lord when they problem solve and find cures to overcome disease and sickness. It was Gods gift that allows us to problem solve. Some scientists are blessed further with higher intelligence."

Yep, there's no difference between people who think the answer to everything is "god did it" and scientists who use logic and reasoning to find answers.

Mr. T. Said, "Will he let his pride and ego get the best of him or will he continue to honor God? Intelligence like beauty is a test and a gift. Will you let it swell your head?"

So, "god" makes some people dull so that they won't have a swelled head. However, it doesn't prevent them from being jealous idiots. Is that better?

Mr. T. said, "The reality is God gave us free will and with this power we can solve problems to ease suffering. When we overcome problems and continue to submit to the Lord we are fulfilling our purpose here on Earth."

You think that "free will" is how man solves problems. That alone wouldn't solve any problem. Logic, reasoning and information are far more important. So, submitting to an archaic concept of god (good and evil) and all the rest of it gives you a purpose in life. I don't think so!

Mr. T. said, "I will finish with this. If you are an atheist scientist, then you have failed Gods test. God has given these people a higher level of thinking, more intelligence and in return God gets no submission or thanks from these people? That is horrible. But I will gladly accept their cures as a gift from God since it was God who gave them their ability to problem solve at a higher level. (Hint: This paragraph is supposed to test how much pride and ego you have, if you feel any type of sting when reading you should strongly consider that you have an ego problem. I used to be an atheist like you guys, I know how you think. Will you at least try to understand how I think? Once you do you will become a Christian.)

Acts 19:12 - So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Why would anyone need higher intelligence to wave handkerchiefs or aprons at sick people? I doubt that anyone did anything but laugh out loud at your "test paragraph". I also doubt that you were ever an atheist. God doesn't give anyone gifts that don't worship him. You must not be praying and reading the bible enough.

Linda said, *** Nope, nobody should expect "god" to solve any problems since he never has, even so, it might prove that he existed if he did. Science has solved all the problems. The bible couldn't even identify the problems. ***

The Bibles purpose is not to identify and categorize disease, nor to offer incite in the filtration process when making fuel, nor to help with making refrigeration more efficient. It is to remind us to shatter our pride and ego and submit to the Lord despite all the difficulties of life.

Linda said **** Then you're in luck, if we are only here to learn the difference in good and evil, because that's about all you know. You would seek treatment because you know that there is no evidence that prayer has ever healed a known and diagnosed disease.****

You do both. You pray to the Lord for strength and if possible healing. But judging by how many prayers have been answered in the Bible the % is too low that he would help us. I'm sure God understands if we tell him on our knees. "Lord I am sick, I need your help, whatever help you can give. But Lord you've given us the ability to solve our own problems. If you do not help me, I will endure this burden and try to remedy it as best as I can out of respect for you Lord. You gave me my hands Lord, you gave me my feet. Let me honor you by using them." .. Followed by deep deep submission and more prayer.

**** Chronicles 16:12 - In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa was afflicted with a disease in his feet. Though his disease was severe, even in his illness he did not seek help from the lord, but only from the physicians. ****

All Asa had to do was consult with the Lord first in deep prayer. But he didn't. He was one sided in his decision. He was a physician and his pride got the best of him thinking he could cure the problem himself. He could of asked the Lord for help while seeking treatment. As long as you go to the Lord first that is what matters followed by seeking treatment. (I'm not saying worship God for 6 months letting a disease manifest, be smart). This is balanced. First consult the most powerful force in the universe, followed by seeking treatment. You'd be a fool not to do that and if you don't believe in God your pride and ego has blinded you.

Linda said, ***Then why did god's minions replace science with superstition, burn libraries and murder scholars? Some were tortured to death. Christians were always really insecure lunatics.*****

These are the actions of man, not God. Corrupt individuals will exploit religion for personal gain and try to hamper anything that may stop them from doing so (science reveals truth). Atheists are rebelling against the actions of atheists in disguise as Christians (it's hilarious) which results in rebellion against God.

Linda said, ****Can you produce proof of a "god' or some evidence that we can examine. Then present us with "evidence" that this god intervened with the evolution of intelligence. Then you will have something, but as of right now, you don't.****

Asking for evidence for God pretty much confirms you have an ego problem. If you can't in any way try to understand that, then you truly are STILL an atheist who has yet to understand Christianity. All these years and you haven't even come close to understanding the other side. Like I said all atheists are one sided and pessimistic.

Even if there was objective evidence for God, the evidence wouldn't last. How would you go about recording the evidence? With a video camera? All video is subject to editing, all recordings are subject to editing. The evidence wouldn't last beyond the next generation of skeptical atheists. An atheist would need God to physically pluck him/her from the Earth in order to get the proof they want. How egotistical is it for a being with an IQ of 100-125 to ask that God (massive IQ) show himself?

Linda said, **** "He" doesn't want a bunch of spoiled brats; that's why he is allowing the homeless people around the world to starve and freeze to death, while rewarding the greedy imperialists who brought about their suffering. I think that there is an abundance of mindless idiots right now, and you're right, god has never done a thing for any of them. ****

Agreed. Man is in charge of his own fate. There have been a few times in the Bible where God has come down to help to show us that He does exist, but in most cases we need to rely on faith and our own problem solving abilities that were given to us by Him.

Linda said **** "Good" and "evil" it's called "mental illness" and there are all kinds.****

The actions of man are so disgusting that the only explanation is demons whisper into the ears of these people to convince them to do what they do. There are people out there with great upbringings who all of a sudden do horrible things. Animals will only rip their victims to shreds in a violent manner. But humans who abuse their free will can torture a man for years & years & years & years...... There is good and evil in the world.

Linda says, **** The bible encourages people to be leaners. It's god that is strong not man. It's "His" strength not your own. Leaning on His ability and not on your own. You replace self-reliance with God's ability. It's dependency on god. Self-confidence reduces dependency on god. You should try to kick the habit.****

I have to acknowledge that there is truth in your words. You are 100% right that there are believers who take so much comfort in the Lord that they become sloths. This is wrong, the Bible says that sloth is a sin. Ideally this is the best approach........ 1) Submit to God and pray ..... 2) Self reliance involves your hands and feet, God wants us to use them... 3) Do what you do out of respect for the Lord and your fellow man.

We have to respect whatever force it is that created us, we have to worship it and submit to it and show it we fear it and love it.

Linda said **** People who don't think the world is 6,ooo years old are in danger of developing swelled heads. ****

Our history goes back 6000 or 10000 years. That's it. No where in the Bible does it say the earth is 10000 years old. These creation scientists think that God wouldn't use matter that is 4.6 billion years old because they think the universe revolves around us and it doesn't. There may be other life out there in the universe.

Linda said, **** Christianity is a cult that started with Catholicism.****

I agree that all religious institutions are subject to corruption as long as humans can feel greed.

Linda said **** Yep, there's no difference between people who think the answer to everything is "god did it" and scientists who use logic and reasoning to find answers.****

Saying God did it, takes away personal glory. A lot of people can't handle that in a world full of pride and ego. If you discover how something works through logic and reasoning the CORRECT response is "God is brilliant", any other response is selfish.

Linda said, **** So, "god" makes some people dull so that they won't have a swelled head. However, it doesn't prevent them from being jealous idiots. Is that better? *****

Sure. The meaning is the same. The more power you have the more you are subject to greed, corruption, pride and ego. Power comes in many forms. For a scientist it is the power of thought, problem solving. When you see that you've made discoveries that no other man has made, wouldn't that swell your head? But if you immediately get on your hands and knees and give all the power to God, you will have done what most men can't do. It is the ultimate act of selflessness.

Linda said **** You think that "free will" is how man solves problems. That alone wouldn't solve any problem. Logic, reasoning and information are far more important. So, submitting to an archaic concept of god (good and evil) and all the rest of it gives you a purpose in life. I don't think so! ****

Free will is the root. You can't have logic, reasoning or gain complex information without our free will. Submitting to God is the best explanation for our purpose here on earth. We go through the good times and bad times and if we still believe in God then we are passing the test.

Linda said **** Acts 19:12 - So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.****

Paul healed people through the grace of God. It wasn't Paul who healed, it was God. These actions were the only way to get people to believe that Paul was speaking the truth. Now let's say this never happened and it is a lie and that the whole Bible is a lie. At least God sees that I'm trying to seek Him and submit to Him.

Linda, you're ultimate goal is to root out the atheists in disguise as religious figures. More power to you to fight against your own kind :P The best way to fight against atheists in disguise is with atheists in uniform! Lol.

Mr. T. said, "The Bibles purpose is not to identify and categorize disease, nor to offer incite in the filtration process when making fuel, nor to help with making refrigeration more efficient. It is to remind us to shatter our pride and ego and submit to the Lord despite all the difficulties of life."

The bible gives no INSIGHT into anything scientific or technological. You would think the "designer" would have shared his vast knowledge with us, but the "He" couldn't do math, and didn't know that earth revolves around the sun.

Mr. T. said, "You gave me my hands Lord, you gave me my feet. Let me honor you by using them." Followed by deep deep submission and more prayer."

Yes, feet don't fail me now! Get me to the hospital.

Mr. T. said, "First consult the most powerful force in the universe, followed by seeking treatment. You'd be a fool not to do that and if you don't believe in God your pride and ego has blinded you."

Well it's hard to take the advice of a god who thinks you can cleanse the house with dead bird blood. The (Leviticus 14:7) sprinkle the house with the dead bird blood to cleanse it.

Mr. T. said, (science reveals truth). Atheists are rebelling against the actions of atheists in disguise as Christians (it's hilarious) which results in rebellion against God.

It sure is hilarious! "A merry heart does good, like medicine."

Mr. T. said, "Like I said all atheists are one sided and pessimistic."

Yeah, all that is yammering about global warming!

Mr. T. said, "Even if there was objective evidence for God, the evidence wouldn't last. How would you go about recording the evidence?"

With artifacts such as (dwellings, statues, paintings or coins) and in some instances their own writings or manuscripts.

Mr. T. said, "God has come down to help to show us that He does exist, but in most cases we need to rely on faith and our own problem solving abilities that were given to us by Him."

Yeah, Jesus came down but the scientists have ended the suffering, and in some instances completely eliminated diseases.

Mr. T. said, "demons whisper into the ears of these people to convince them to do what they do.

People who hear "demons whispering into their ears" have gone off their psych meds.

Mr. T. said, "We have to respect whatever force it is that created us, we have to worship it and submit to it and show it we fear it and love it."

Mr. T. said, "Our history goes back 6000 or 10000 years. That's it. No where in the Bible does it say the earth is 10000 years old."

Humans evolved from a common ancestor. The last common ancestor of hominids and apes occurred between 5 and 10 million years ago.

Mr. T. said, "I agree that all religious institutions are subject to corruption as long as humans can feel greed."

Christianity was always the epitome of evil. The Inquisition is irrefutable proof of the wickedness of Christianity. The purpose of the Inquisition was terrorism. It was meant to intimidate people into abandoning their own religion for Christianity. The terrorist methods used were threats, torture, imprisonment and impoverishment, with burning alive the ultimate punishment.

Mr. T. said, "If you discover how something works through logic and reasoning the CORRECT response is "God is brilliant", any other response is selfish."

This is an indication of just how obtuse you really are. If scientist had just decided that "god did it" then there would have been no need to answer any questions. When scientist answers one question it leads to others and that's how science works. Science doesn't need to stop examination only religion does because it's fake.

Mr. T. said, "But if you immediately get on your hands and knees and give all the power to God, you will have done what most men can't do. It is the ultimate act of selflessness."

A "god" that wants humanity on their hands and knees. Only a stupid prick would worship it.

Mr. T. said, "Submitting to God is the best explanation for our purpose here on earth. We go through the good times and bad times and if we still believe in God then we are passing the test." Submitting to god is the only purpose you can come up with for your life.

Mr. T. said, "Now let's say this never happened and it is a lie and that the whole Bible is a lie. At least God sees that I'm trying to seek Him and submit to Him."

There is no doubt that the bible is a fraudulent, and so is all religion. There is no god, but if an omnipresent peeping Tom makes you happy I'll say no more.

I think you've found out that we can spot a phony that is pretending to be an atheist in order to put stupid crap on this message board. The lying self-righteous sanctimonious cowards are not atheists; there are still very few people who are real atheists.

I started laughing from the first line of this load of fertilizer.

Mr. Toady,

A few quick comments since Linda responded to most of what you wrote.

It's pretty clear to me that you've made up some god in your mind. You have no objective evidence for your god, as you've admitted. It's incompatible with the Bible and most of the blatherings of most of the other people who call themselves Christian. Your god does absolutely nothing because it doesn't exist. As Linda said, science has done everything, but religions have just stolen credit.

Next, you follow this imaginary god without any real thought of your own. You seem to think that if you follow it, you will be free from any sense of responsibility for your beliefs and actions. Every time I mention the fact that Christians have systematically screwed up most everything they've tried, your brain shuts off and you stop the conversation. Christianity and responsibility are incompatible, so you can't even carry on a conversation about it. You, like other believers, have made your deal with you imaginary gods. You think you have somehow bargained away your responsibility in this world for some sort of perpetual orgasm in the next. You are all dupes and humanity is being cheated in the bargain.

The religion is about each individual screwing their fellow man for their own fantasy of eternal bliss. Since it's all based on fantasy, the religion is inherently amoral. It doesn't scale. Christianity is only a con game that cannot solve the world's problems. It only makes them worse, as I've pointed out numerous times.

You think this is the path to ultimate good. When atheists point out your complete lack of morality in Christianity, Christians choose to go after the atheists. We're the ones pointing out that raping children is wrong. (Christendom, God, and the Bible together couldn't figure that out.) We point out that mass murder is wrong, but we only get spin about Hitler being an atheist. We point out that censorship is wrong. We point out that Christianity is creating poverty, but supposedly it's trying to solve it. We point out how Christianity has stood in the way of so many scientific advances and when they do happen, they're there to steal credit.

Atheists are working to dispel the lies and stop the harm, but people like you work to get in the way. You don't give a shit about your fellow man. You only want freedom from responsibility. The fact that we're bursting the bubble of your irresponsible fantasy makes us your enemy. Your fantasy is far more important than preventing other children from being raped by Priests, women being essentially tricked into bearing children they can't support, suppression of the rights of minorities and non-believers. You are happy to aid and abet "evil" as long as you can convince yourself your "right" with god and your fantasy of perpetual orgasm is safe from criticism.

You seem to have figured out that most of Christianity is a con. You don't like Catholics. Have you ever looked at what an evil son of a bitch the founder of Protestantism is? Did you know that Hitler loved Martin Luther's antisemitic writings so much that he used them as a blueprint for Krystallnacht, which Hitler he began on Martin Luther's birthday? Did you know that Martin Luther started riots that killed several tens of thousands? If Catholicism is a cult, then Protestantism is a club for murder.

I'm sure that you have some sort of rationalization for why your particular sub-sub-sect has added more lies to the mix and arrived at the correct answer. Perhaps you can point out the exact moment when your particular version of the Christian hodgepodge jumped on the morality tracks. I'd really like to know.

Here's a nice little article about the fact that god is made up.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18216-dear-god-please-confirm-what-i-already-believe.html

If I am fearing for my life I'll cave in and pray to Odin. That's for sure.

Or Joe Pesci (RIP George Carlin)

"Your plane crashes into the ocean and you are the only survivor. You're drifting in cold ocean waters and unfortunately they are shark infested. You're fearing for your life and thinking of ways to survive. You feel something brush against your leg.

At this moment will you come to know the Lord? Will you cry out to God? Or will you ponder all the scientific evidence that led to the evolution of the sharks who are about to devour you? "

I wouldn't do either. I'd swim as fast as I could, either to an island, or to the wreckage of the plane.

"I'll put this bluntly. Do you have the balls to back up your belief? We all find ourselves in life threatening situations in one way or another. In the final moment how will you react? Will you believe? "

It isn't a matter of "having balls". People act on their beliefs, and believe what they think is true. I can't decide what I think is true any more than I can decide what is true. That's the case whatever situation I'm in. For those people who really don't believe in God at all, crying out to God won't confer them any consolation.

"God instilled us with a desire to seek Him and I believe that desire will break free once you're vulnerable enough. That desire will shatter your pride and ego when you are most vulnerable. "

Lucky for you that your contention is completely unfalsifiable. If someone who is in a vulnerable situation doesn't call out for God, you can just say that he isn't in a vulnerable enough situation. Can anything anyone says or does change your opinion that everyone in the world would believe in God if they were in a dire enough situation?

"This is not a fear tactic, it's reality. What would you do if you found yourself in such a situation? Swallow your pride and believe?"

Atheism isn't about pride. I'm not proud that I'm an atheist. I just think it's true.

Well Mr T I've had a near death experience. I had blood poisoning that led to a touch and go situation where I very nearly died. In that time, I did not cry out to any god/s and never considered an afterlife. I was too busy feeling like crap. I wished to live as I like living. All the great family and friends that make life worthwhile and all that. No, I don't have a desire built into me to find any higher power. But I do have a desire to live.

"God instilled us with a desire to seek Him and I believe that desire will break free once you're vulnerable enough. That desire will shatter your pride and ego when you are most vulnerable."

I agree that we have a desire to seek comfort in adversity, solace in calamity. Biologically, we seek to avoid pain, and that's adaptive. It may also well be part of our nature as biologically social creatures. But your statement does nothing to bolster the view that I should seek such from an imaginary comforter. Exactly which god would you recommend in this situation (I'm guessing Poseidon?). I'm not sure my pride/ego have anything to do with it either. Your conjecture is quite lacking in substance. Can you please elaborate?

It would actually make me more of an atheist if that's possible. Why would a god put me in that situation in the first place, only to save me later? You're telling me that if I don't pray, then I will be eaten? I thought god loved all his children? Or does he only love the ones that say "Uncle"?

Good grief! I'm not sure what the point of the plane crash is (other than to get me to the shark infested waters), because it seems quite a miracle I survived the crash to begin with. Anyway, you pose your question in quite a number of ways, so I'll restate for clarity:

"If, or when, I'm faced with death and have the opportunity to consider my mortality, will I renounce my disbelief and ask (presumably Jehovah) for his aid? (or possibly just his forgiveness?)"

Answer: No.

Discussion: My, you have quite a big opinion of your god don't you? Such a large opinion that you think us Atheists go through life thinking about nothing but god. If I speak only for myself; he really doesn't figure much. Only when I read forum posts like this one do I actually think about god again. The point is, the only significance god has on my life, is his followers. Were I faced with death, and had the time to think about it, I really can't conceive of a way in which god is going to feature. I'll thinking about my friends, my family and my wife - probably even about how this is the end and well, it's been interesting if nothing else. (Given the opportunity, I'll be thinking of ways to prevent my death or those around me. Such as in your example of the plane crash - attempting to salvage a life raft. I'd probably be so busy thinking of options - I'd probably forget to think about death at all. Probably better than treading water and begging for a god to save me - but then, that's the product of a rational mind...)

i know enough about sharks to know to attack the eyes and "nose" area they will be both disoriented and put off with those simple attack. so while i fight to keep my precious life you can go ahead and be their next meal and later be released as the shark's fecal matter ^_^

I BELIEVE that my instincts will tell me to seek a way to escape. If no escape is found, I will prepare myself to be eaten and try to die as happy as one can in that situation. Even seconds before death, life is to precious to worry about it ending forever.

I am afraid the threat of being eaten alive still does not provide sufficient evidence that a god exist; am I right?

If pride was the reason for my not believing in gods, then I would, at that moment begin to pray. It is, however honesty, and a willing concession to the apparent facts that keeps me from believing. I would just have to fight for my life without resorting to the use of dubious magics, as I have for most of my adult life.

Oh God! He's right!

In that situation, I will surely bow down and praise my God - the loving and caring Amaterasu Omikami!

Okay, I'm done being sarcastic.

In that situation, I'd swim to shore. At least, I'd try so. If I was bleeding, a shark might get tempted and then I've have to try and bunch him in the nose.

Other than that, I'd wish someone could help me. But just wishin' don't make it so.

I am sure that a lot of people would hope to retain at least some dignity when faced with imminent suffering and possibly death. Some would panic, thrash about wildly and drown before the shark got them. They might even shout or pray for help. I doubt if anyone can be relied on to think rationally in a life threatening crisis like the one proposed (see 9/11 for real life examples).

What does God do in this situation? Well, perhaps He checks your credentials - "May I see your belief Sir?" - "Mmm, your belief seems to have expired Sir." To the shark - "He's all yours, Bon Appetit."

Believe in what? I'm a new member, and a Zulu. I'd ask the Gods of the Ocean to rescue me from this shark. We have different gods for all kinds of purposes. You'll find it's far more useful. from Sisi

Mr T

I quote you as saying "God instilled us with a desire to seek Him " Didn't God also give Man free will to think for himself as well?

the Zulu

God didn't give anybody anything. People give themselves the right to think or they give the right to think away and become brainwashed.

It doesn't matter what I do or say when I die. Out of fear I may yell out something asinine like "God help me" but only as a learned reaction to a traumatic event. Are you saying that my last reaction out of fear is somehow proof that God exists?

Mr T I face that reality everyday. I am not an adrenaline junky; I am a preschool teacher. I love to read. I enjoy a hot cup of tea. Taking my dog on a long walk is one of my greatest pleasures. I lead a peaceful and fulfilling life. I am an atheist, and I am terminally ill. During the course of my illness I have been asked similar lines of questions. The simple answer is an echo of Don's earlier reply; no, I have not addressed any gods, demons, angels, fairies, unicorns, or spaghetti monsters for a life extension. Why would I waste any of the precious time I have? I prefer spending it in constructive ways by building memories that my loved ones can carry with them. The only difference between my lack of existence prior to life and the end of existence after death is that the elements that came together to form me have had the unique opportunity to acquire sentience and make my own corner of the world a better place. From where I stand, my view on death is far more hopeful than yours. The Christian belief of an after life demands one to believe that a certain percentage of the population is bound for an eternity of torture. My belief of the finality of death lands us all squarely in the same place; the memories of those we leave behind. On a final note, I find your use of tragedy in order to force an answer from people that your own belief system seems to require in order to sustain itself to be morally repugnant behavior.

Dear Mr. T

like many others already said before, what you are suggesting is that in our final hour, or minute, or shortly at the timet we face death, our "survival mechanism implanted by god" turns to religion and we beg of god to save us or at least our poor soul.. well maybe some (atheist) people will.. like it is claimed about Charles Darwin but mainly convinced theists cling to that straw because that is the "tactics" they have been using throughout their life.. when in danger or doubt.. ask god,for help or say "god did it", sometimes to justify an act, or to calm oneself down in a stressful or critical situation. Well let me tell you my story. I have faced death twice so far in my life, once a moronic old man hit me with his BMW 3 days before summer vacations driving at around 55mph, not hitting the break but instead trying to drive around me so he even stepped on it and took me on a ride for a few dozen meters more before finally hitting on the breaks and sending me on a 50 or so meter flight. As you could guess, i survived, (really) but it almost crippled me, i spent over 3 months in the hospital, over 2 months in the wheelchair and then around 9 months on crutches. However, in the moment of the impact i was NOT thinking about god, after i landed and finally got myself together and started to pick up my legs from the street, one of them wasn't held by bones anymore, the real pain came later but the shock was huge and i remember i tried standing up but when grabbed my leg it was horribly twisted and hanging like a pendulum i saw all the blood around me, i did not think about god, instead i was thinking about my limo that i had in my backpack which was around 20 meters away from me i thought about the idiot who then inspected his car instead of checking on me but no, i did not think about god, to thank him for saving my life or something like that, if he had picked me up and saved me and then pulled the moron out of the car and broke his legs instead, then i would have been thankful but thats not what happened so i had no reason to think about god. A believer would maybe tried explaining it to himself like that that gods helping hand saved him from death and that it is god's big plan to cripple him or whatever.. quite a perverted plan if you ask me.. i am still 10% handicapped and justice wasn't served since that happened in germany where you don't get much money if you are involved in accidents and its enough to have some good lawyers to protect yourself from serious consequences.. well at least in my case it helped. However i doubt god had anything to do with it and i didn't waste any time thinking about him or thanking or blaming him instead i turn to the humans which in pretty much all cases carry the guilt for the crap thats happening.

The second time i suffered a severe bacterial meningitis where my body almost gave up fighting it, i didn't know what it is so i stayed at home and had my friends bring me some aspirins and what ever medicine they thought would help.. until i couldn't stand light anymore.. at all.. a small sunray was enough to daze me and i spent most of the time in darkness.. dragging myself along the walls in my appartment since i could barely walk..

It was holiday season in Bosnia and i didn't know who to call to get me, the Public Safetry Answering Point obviously didn't take me serious.. they said it wasn't up to them but up to my local clinic and i could already barely talk at that time and almost gave up.. my body was entirely covered in fungi, i couldn't hold any fluids or food for very long.. vomitted several times per day.

My parents were on vacations in another country and i already was too sick to walk around in the neighborhood and ask people for help.. i called my friends and some neighbors when i started losing conscience every few minutes and my friend came.. although very disgusted by the smell in my place and the way i was looking at that time, he helped me pack few things together and put me on a taxi to the hospital where they told me that i was pretty close to dying.. Spent few weeks in intensive care and so on and so on

Well to shorten it, sorry to disappoint you but i was too busy with myself all that time to spend even a single thought on god or beg him for help, all my life i am aware of that that people are dying and suffering terrible things, no matter if they pray or not so every second spent on a prayer is a lost second of your life and repenting and hoping when i die the soooo merciful baby killing, slavery enforcing, and so on - god is pathetic to me so i didn't even think about that, i pitty any fool who puts their life and happiness in god's hands.

There is a joke here in Bosnia about some guy in a flood, clinging onto the roof of his car, some guy says "cmon man, swim over here" he said "no, god will save me" when the water was around his elbows the man yelled from a neighboring house "over here man, swim over here" but he refused to do so and went back to his prayer.. When the water was almost completely covering him and dragging him into his death the other man tried throwing a rope over to him but he refused and claimed that god will help him.

When he died he faced god and asked him "God, i was just all my life, i helped others and praised and worshipped you and not once i did any wrong, why doidn't you save me in my hour of need?" and god said.. "Dude that guy tried helping you 3 times and you still stayed on that stupid roof.."

So even IF there is your god, if you look around you will see that he didn't help anybody, the ones who claim it are lying or hallucinating See the big picture about people being mugged raped killed countries invaded enslaved etcetcetcetc, MANY of them prayed and put their faith in god's hands and well it didn't help them, so even if you believe in god and pray and all the other humbug, you should take responsibility for your own deeds, take action when you want something to happen and not blame it on that omnipotent dude and ask him to fight your battles.

I would try kicking the shark in the face, try saving myself, i wouldn't wait for god to pull me out of the water or send some dolphins to the rescue. Also you should ask yourself why your god puts you in that situation in first place.

Hope that answers your question

Christian: What will you do after you die and meet God?

Atheist: It depends on how sincerely he apologises..

God is make-believe. Plain and simple. For some hilarious atheist material to include a New Testament re-write go to https://sites.google.com/site/esterlighthorse/ I have done all of the cartooning on this particular site. For those individuals who enjoyed George Orwell's 'Animal Farm' read 'The Autopsy of Christianity Stoops.'

As someone who has faced the prospect of death and had a gun put to my face, I can honestly say that no, I did not cry out to any deities for help (vocally or internally).

A lot has been said on this subject, but it seems to me (humbly), that some clarification needs to be made. First and foremost is the distinction between religion and belief that are too often mingled though they are quite different. Secondly, even if one were to crack and adopt the idea of a supreme being, it should not be a foregone conclusion that it has to be the god of Abraham.

The problem with Christians, when 'god' is evoked is that they think in terms of the god of Abraham (or even Jesus). Well, when Muslims speak of 'god' they think in terms of Allah, Jews, in terms of Yaweh (other name for the god of Abraham), Jehovah's witnesses in terms of Jehovah, etc.. When you say "God instilled us with a desire to seek Him", what if we think in terms of Thor, or Manitoo, or Wakan Tanka? Are we wrong and would that make any difference? What makes you think that when we are at that breaking point we should automatically think in terms of Yaweh?

Institutionalized religion has a set of tenets and dogmas that delineate it from common belief. Yes, religion does involve belief, but a very limited and specific belief because of its tenets and dogmas. One must believe that 'god' communicated to us who He is and what to believe of Him. This makes religion a very precise, impervious package separating itself from other forms of belief and a broader form of spirituality. This is where Belief, (spirituality), in its broadest term distinguishes itself from religion and in particular institutionalized religion. Belief has no boundaries; one can believe in the giant spaghetti monster or in an invisible tea pot, but religion says no, he is such and such, and if you don't accept this you're dead.

Personally, I may break down and cry out, in desperation, for help in a crisis, but certainly not cry out to institutionalized religion and its despotic gods.

Athiesm isn`t a belief, it`s lack of. 1) How can anyone know how they will act when they are under duress? No matter what they say to themselves in their final moments, it won`t prove God is there. 2) If God existed the plane wouldn`t crash in the first place and I wouldn`t be shark food. 3) If God needs to torment me in order to get my worship, if God demands I worship just because he says so, then I will not call out to him because he is unworthy. So yes, even if he is out there, he may as well not be, and I will never sacrifice my humanity in order to crawl and grovel for him.

I was in Iraq for 1 year, Bombed nearly 4 times a week and shot at every trip outside the wire. I am an atheist. Never once thought otherwise either.

Allow me to put the question to you? How strong are your beliefs? Would you swallow your pride for Jesus?

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. --Matthew 19:21

Are you so proud you think you know better than Jesus?

I get what you're saying, but to be honest I'm not sure, I would like to think I would not, because I know there is no god, but let be explain why I might, and why that doesn't prove that I am less of an Atheist, or some how prove that some kind of god exists. What you are describing as the instilled desire to seek "god" is, to put it plainly for you, the will to survive and the fear of death. When people feel they may die they will do anything to survive, I am sure we can both agree on that. So when we become "vulnerable" as you put it, or we are fairly certain we are going to die, we become afraid, very afraid. To cope with this fear, many people's minds revert to teachings that tell them they will go to heaven, and that maybe there is a god that could help them not die. People do not think of a god in those moments because god put a desire to seek him in us, they do it because they are afraid and desperately want to believe in something that assures them that this is not the end. It is actually quite ironic you bring this up, for the same fear you describe here is the very reason religion exists, and why people cling to it.. THE FEAR OF FINAL DEATH. Also I really find the "Swallow your pride and believe" phrase a little offensive. Pride is not what makes me stick to my Atheist "belief" Reason does, and yes many times when people are that afraid they throw their REASON out the window and search for something comforting, even though they may already know it is false.

Follow us on:

twitter facebook meetup

ustream.tv