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Atheist Community of Austin
It's not religion, it's man. Atheists need to understand that.

Atheists don't like how wars and murders are committed over religion. But atheists fail to realize one simple thing. If man is greedy then he'll exploit any methodology/system to suit his "need".

If you're gonna rid the world of religion, then also rid the world of:

- money (People die over this a lot more than religion). - government (A corrupt one can destroy an entire nation). - fire (Use it to heat yourself up or burn someone to death). - windows operating system (Use it to increase your productivity or create a nasty virus).

The above things can all be twisted, exploited and ultimately used as weapons of war or they can be used for good.

As long as humans possess the following two things war and murder will always always always be rampant. 1) Free Will 2) Pain Sensory Mechanism

Atheists if you are upset over religion, I suggest you focus your efforts on solving the problem of "greed" first. Religion should be the last thing on your list. While you try to solve the problem of greed, I urge you to pray to the Lord for help.

Mr. Truth(TM),

Believers claim that there is a god, who created mankind, who is all-powerful, and who is the author of morality. If such a God created mankind, surely he can communicate with us. There is the claim that believers receive messages from this god in prayer. They pray all the time. Supposedly, the holy ghost, an essential aspect of this god lives within each believer. The believers claim to dedicate their lives to god, want to follow and obey him, and strive to stay on his good side because if they do, they can cheat death and have perpetual orgasms in the afterlife.

With all this how is it that the failure rate of man + god is exactly the same as the failure rate of man alone? The simplest explanation is that the god is without value. God + the Bible + prayer + Christianity together have failed.

It's worse than that, however. It has been demonstrated that religious societies are measurably worse than their secular counterparts. See http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html. The claim that religious belief makes societies more moral is a lie.

Please pray to your god to have me killed or fix your messes, or whatever. We both know it's a waste of your time. It's masturbation. It makes you feel better, but it does nothing to improve the world.

I'll spend my time how I like. I'm actually doing something.

----- With all this how is it that the failure rate of man + god is exactly the same as the failure rate of man alone? -------

Before we can have a relationship with God in the afterlife we need a thorough understanding of good and evil. If God helps us avoid failure/evil/good then we'll never learn anything. We must fail on our own. I have never heard God's voice outside of my own head. I consider my conscience my connection to God.

---- The simplest explanation is that the god is without value. God + the Bible + prayer + Christianity together have failed. ----

Look at Pastor Rick Warren and all he's done for the world. Now even though Bill Gates isn't a Christian he grew up with Catholic values.

---- It's worse than that, however. It has been demonstrated that religious societies are measurably worse than their secular counterparts. See http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html. The claim that religious belief makes societies more moral is a lie. ----

Man is sinful in nature. The point of Christianity is to swallow your pride and admit that you're a sinner and repent, then submit to the Lord and tell him that you're nothing compared to Him. (And this has nothing to do with anyone else, it's between you & God). This took me 7 years to understand.

---- Please pray to your god to have me killed or fix your messes, or whatever. We both know it's a waste of your time. It's masturbation. It makes you feel better, but it does nothing to improve the world. ----

Next time there are major fires burning in your area open up Google maps and look at all the churches opening their doors for people seeking refuge.

As a counter argument Atheists donate money to the red cross. But if you don't believe in God why on earth would you give money away that you could use for yourself? If you follow the rules of survival of the fittest then helping other people will deprive you of resources you could keep for yourself.

--- I'll spend my time how I like. I'm actually doing something. ----

I agree that if you let your faith get in the way of being productive that is wrong. In the Bible it says not to be a "Sloth".

On a final note. Since my life is not my own (I didn't make myself nor did my parents make themselves) I must assume I was made by another force. This force DESERVES my respect. The basis of religion is showing this force the respect it deserves.

Atheists swear by objective evidence and in a world full of deception I can understand where you guys are coming from, but don't let that interfere with your relationship with God.

Mr. T.,

Maybe we need to back up a little bit.

If you write me telling me about how you spend all day Sunday chasing fairies in the park, tell me about their elaborate social lives, and how you're going to follow the commands they whisper in your ear, I'm naturally going to think you're nuts.

Ditto for gods. Mankind has invented thousands of gods, along with fairies, Leprechauns, ghosts, gremlins, pixies, elves, dragons, etc. These are all products of an active imagination. They're dangerous if people start to think they're real.

Atheists ask "what evidence is there?" Notice that there's exactly the same amount of evidence for fairies as there is for gods: none. This is why atheists put them in the same category: not to be believed. If you don't have evidence, then please don't assume I ascribe to your fantasy.

"Sin" is a concept based on the whims of a god. It's a meaningless term used to control people. A fantasy can't love you or own you.

My point about Christianity failing is that with all that supernatural power, it should be getting the right answer 99.9999% of the time. It fails. A lot. That's the point. You counter with "oh, it got the right answer here..." so what? Random guesses will be right sometimes, too. The overall impact of Christianity is negative. It's morally bankrupt.

Christianity has a great marketing department. Listening to it, you'd almost believe that a hot meal served in a Christian soup kitchen is worth those million lives of Jews.

Do you think that secular countries and institutions don't take care of people too? Can you think of something that a religious organization does that a non-religious organization can't do? I can't think of anything.

When atheists give money to charity it really is charity. There is nothing expected in return. As you've admitted, when Christians give, they often hope to make converts and ensure their own places in heaven. I don't think that's really charity. By the way, atheists don't think "survival of the fittest" is a moral code. I know your Christian manipulators have told you that, but they're lying.

The Bible says to take your unruly son out to the corner of town and stone him to death. Do you follow the Bible's moral advice? Let me answer for you: you don't follow it because you know it's crap. You pick and choose based on your own moral code. But when the Bible says "Let his blood be on us and on our children!", then it's a great excuse to kill someone you didn't like to begin with. Jesus died for your sins, so it's ok.

---- If you write me telling me about how you spend all day Sunday chasing fairies in the park, tell me about their elaborate social lives, and how you're going to follow the commands they whisper in your ear, I'm naturally going to think you're nuts. ----

We all question our origins. Now which being would be more likely to create the universe? A God or a fairy? We define God as an all knowing powerful being. A fairy is far from that.

--- Ditto for gods. Mankind has invented thousands of gods, along with fairies, Leprechauns, ghosts, gremlins, pixies, elves, dragons, etc. These are all products of an active imagination. They're dangerous if people start to think they're real. Atheists ask "what evidence is there?" Notice that there's exactly the same amount of evidence for fairies as there is for gods: none. This is why atheists put them in the same category: not to be believed. If you don't have evidence, then please don't assume I ascribe to your fantasy. ---

None of those creatures are believed to of created the universe. The concept of God is the being who created the universe. Observing natural laws of the universe I've come to this conclusion. Did I make these laws? No. Did my parents make them? No. Then who did? I believe in who, atheists believe in what. Who makes more sense in my opinion.

--- "Sin" is a concept based on the whims of a god. It's a meaningless term used to control people. A fantasy can't love you or own you. ---

Acknowledging that sin is real is the first step to controlling yourself. My pastor doesn't order me or tell me what to do, but he does convict me into a sense of guilt so that I won't sin (or try not to). You call this control, then so be it. I'm strong enough to admit that I need to be controlled to a certain level with the help of my fellow man. We have to keep each other in check.

--- My point about Christianity failing is that with all that supernatural power, it should be getting the right answer 99.9999% of the time. It fails. A lot. That's the point. You counter with "oh, it got the right answer here..." so what? Random guesses will be right sometimes, too. The overall impact of Christianity is negative. It's morally bankrupt. ---

If we were getting the right answer 99% of the time we wouldn't have room to grow and learn. We are supposed to fail, it's the only way we learn. Your keyword "a lot", yes that's true! We fail a lot, the more the better!

You're placing blame on a religion as if man is good in nature and is only corrupt when following religion. The proper statement is actually "The overall impact of mans nature is negative. Man is morally bankrupt".

--- Christianity has a great marketing department. Listening to it, you'd almost believe that a hot meal served in a Christian soup kitchen is worth those million lives of Jews. Do you think that secular countries and institutions don't take care of people too? Can you think of something that a religious organization does that a non-religious organization can't do? I can't think of anything. ---

If you give without giving respect to God, then you are trying to keep the glory for yourself. Please think about the following concept. You didn't make yourself. Your arms, your legs, your brain doesn't belong to you because you didn't make it. Can you understand this? You have no right to any credit for anything you do. God deserves all the credit first and you second.

If you give $500.00 to help out a charity. Who gave you the body to actually do the work to make the money to give to the charity? This is why you can't give without giving respect to God.

--- When atheists give money to charity it really is charity. There is nothing expected in return. As you've admitted, when Christians give, they often hope to make converts and ensure their own places in heaven. I don't think that's really charity. By the way, atheists don't think "survival of the fittest" is a moral code. I know your Christian manipulators have told you that, but they're lying. ---

I can't argue with that. Anyone who gives like that has a good heart. But like I said who gave you the body to be able to work, earn money to give to charity?

(Now you could counter argue this with something like "See this is how Christians manipulate people to control them to get their money". It's a sad truth that there are crooks out there. Technically corrupt religious leaders who don't fear or believe in the Lord are atheists :P)

--- The Bible says to take your unruly son out to the corner of town and stone him to death. Do you follow the Bible's moral advice? Let me answer for you: you don't follow it because you know it's crap. You pick and choose based on your own moral code. But when the Bible says "Let his blood be on us and on our children!", then it's a great excuse to kill someone you didn't like to begin with. Jesus died for your sins, so it's ok. ----

Rebellious sons who are out of control drinking and being selfish often grow up to be criminals. They dealt with things different back in the day. That is the from the old testament. During tough times you need strict rules to keep order. If you can't bring yourself to respect your own mom & dad how will you respect people in society?

And for the record we're not strong enough, man enough, good enough, smart enough or divine enough to follow the rules of God. Because if we followed the rules to the dot there would be heaven on earth and we're not ready for that yet.

Mr. T,

Asking *who* created the universe is like asking what dog created the universe. The question has an assumption built into it that a dog (or being) did it? This way of thinking is just a mind game to give you the answer that you want. There are plenty of fables from various religions about how the world came to be. Just because your religion has one doesn't make it true. Reality is not a popularity contest. It'd also be helpful for you to get a stronger grip on what's real and what's fantasy.

Asking how the universe came to be and why it is the way it is *are* valid questions. The process of science is making great headway in answering these questions. Guess what? Along the way science has produced loads of technologies that are the fruits of their labor. By contrast, religions create con games and torture devices. There is nothing of scientific value in any holy book. That's because they're all made up and they are products of their time.

The rest of your post is a bunch of claims about your god made without evidence. I will dismiss them without evidence. If you'd like, I can make up some bullshit about fairies that is equivalent to what you wrote and spew it back to you. Perhaps if I did that it would help you see how silly your beliefs are.

I especially like your con game of saying that the theists you don't like are atheists. I've never known a believer to feel any sense of responsibility for their religion. You are no exception. I don't even think "responsibility" appears in the Bible. By contrast, I take responsibility for my actions and beliefs. (I try very hard not to believe in untrue things.) Which of us us more moral?

I suppose that if your religion is all about crap, then you have to play mind games, lie, and emotionally manipulate people. Every time a Christian does one of these things, it just reinforces in my mind the fact that it's complete garbage. How does it feel to be a yet another garbage salesman?

Aww man. I spent 1 hour 30 minutes typing something out and my post expired.

I'll retype it tommorow lol. Night.

***** Asking *who* created the universe is like asking what dog created the universe. The question has an assumption built into it that a dog (or being) did it? This way of thinking is just a mind game to give you the answer that you want. There are plenty of fables from various religions about how the world came to be. Just because your religion has one doesn't make it true. Reality is not a popularity contest. It'd also be helpful for you to get a stronger grip on what's real and what's fantasy. *****

I compare ourselves to the second most intelligent creature on the planet and the difference isn't proportionate between 2nd and 3rd most intelligent creatures on the planet. The gap of intelligence between a human and the 2nd most intelligent animal is HUGE. It's unbelievably huge and totally out of whack in the evolutionary chart. If this isn't enough to make you question "who" then it's your ego and stubbornness that are hindering you.

****Asking how the universe came to be and why it is the way it is *are* valid questions. The process of science is making great headway in answering these questions. Guess what? Along the way science has produced loads of technologies that are the fruits of their labor. By contrast, religions create con games and torture devices. There is nothing of scientific value in any holy book. That's because they're all made up and they are products of their time.****

Science can be used for both good or evil means, same with religion. Both of these systems can be exploited. But we have to understand that man's intent comes before all known systems, methodologies, religions, etc.

**** The rest of your post is a bunch of claims about your god made without evidence. I will dismiss them without evidence. If you'd like, I can make up some bullshit about fairies that is equivalent to what you wrote and spew it back to you. Perhaps if I did that it would help you see how silly your beliefs are. ****

There will never be objective evidence proving God exists. God doesn't have to conform to our standards. We need to show Him that we conform to His. You don't quite understand what it means to believe in God. It's about "letting go", "submitting", showing you have enough courage to admit your a sinner and admit that a higher being must govern your life.

**** I especially like your con game of saying that the theists you don't like are atheists. I've never known a believer to feel any sense of responsibility for their religion. You are no exception. I don't even think "responsibility" appears in the Bible. By contrast, I take responsibility for my actions and beliefs. (I try very hard not to believe in untrue things.) Which of us us more moral? ****

It's not theists I don't like, it's atheists posing as theists knowing that they can exploit a system for their personal gain. A true theist fears the Lord and would never steal in His name. Atheists believe there is no God, they have nothing to fear, therefore they can exploit a system of religion for personal gain.

**** I suppose that if your religion is all about crap, then you have to play mind games, lie, and emotionally manipulate people. Every time a Christian does one of these things, it just reinforces in my mind the fact that it's complete garbage. How does it feel to be a yet another garbage salesman? ****

Well I'm trying to get people to swallow their pride and lose their ego. To come to God and say "I am nothing compared to you and only with your permission could I ever be with you in Heaven. I fear you, I'm afraid of you because of how powerful you are. Because I fear you I will try my utmost best to avoid sin. And even though I am a sinner and it is impossible for me not to sin, you were kind enough to sacrifice your son so that we may have the gift of repentance. "

Let's say I'm completely wrong about Christianity in every way. At least God will see my good intentions of believing in Him, submitting to Him, fearing him and showing Him respect.

It is a personal relationship between you & God that you should establish without interference from anyone.

Even if we're wrong about Jesus, God will at least know we assumed He is forgiving and that he would offer us a way to be with him. Humans are not perfect, how could we ever be in the presence of something as powerful as a God who created the universe? Only if God wanted it that way would it be so.

All I'm trying to say to you guys is, get on your knees and submit to God. Submit, submit, submit. FEAR HIM. But then love him at the same time.

You did not make yourself, nor did your parents make themselves. Give respect to the force that did. Go out on a limb and ASSUME it's intelligent. It takes a lot more balls to be on the Lords side than to just be a close minded atheist, trapped in a box.

Ultimately you guys just like being the minority, the rebels. That's cool when you're young but once you are past 25 years old it's time to face the truth and worship the Lord.

You guys don't seriously believe life originates from non-intelligent means? Not when the universe has all these "laws" & "rules" THAT WE DIDN'T MAKE.

*** I compare ourselves to the second most intelligent creature on the planet and the difference isn't proportionate between 2nd and 3rd most intelligent creatures on the planet. The gap of intelligence between a human and the 2nd most intelligent animal is HUGE. It's unbelievably huge and totally out of whack in the evolutionary chart. If this isn't enough to make you question "who" then it's your ego and stubbornness that are hindering you. ***

What does the relative intelligence of beings on this planet have to do with how the universe got created? If you'd like to argue that there might be other intelligent beings in the universe, I would probably agree with you. You haven't addressed the issue of something existing before the universe (which is defined to be everything). There are other problems with your statement, as well.

*** But we have to understand that man's intent comes before all known systems, methodologies, religions, etc. ***

Yep. And gods, too.

***There will never be objective evidence proving God exists. God doesn't have to conform to our standards. We need to show Him that we conform to His. You don't quite understand what it means to believe in God. It's about "letting go", "submitting", showing you have enough courage to admit your a sinner and admit that a higher being must govern your life.***

I'm glad you admit that you don't have evidence for your god, nor do you expect any. I have no need for such a god as such a god is irrelevant. The rest of your paragraph is called "special pleading". You are trying to define your god into existence with silly word games.

*** It's not theists I don't like, it's atheists posing as theists knowing that they can exploit a system for their personal gain. A true theist fears the Lord and would never steal in His name. Atheists believe there is no God, they have nothing to fear, therefore they can exploit a system of religion for personal gain. ***

The original topic was you shifting the blame for Christians doing bad things. I was trying to get you to see that if an individual takes responsibility for his own actions, such as not being a mindless follower, than the problem goes away. The atheists I know are big on personal responsibility. Meanwhile, you're trying to avoid responsibility by blaming atheists for Christians not being smart enough to take responsibility for their own actions. Pretty sad.

As for the rest of your post. I have no intention of FEARing or SUBMITting to anything. I'm not going to shut off my mind and grovel to someone else's fantasies. You've agreed that you will never have evidence that your fantasies are real. Why should anyone pay attention to what you have to say? It's indistinguishable from delusions.

Mr. T said: "Rebellious sons who are out of control drinking and being selfish often grow up to be criminals. They dealt with things different back in the day. That is the from the old testament. During tough times you need strict rules to keep order. If you can't bring yourself to respect your own mom & dad how will you respect people in society?

And for the record we're not strong enough, man enough, good enough, smart enough or divine enough to follow the rules of God. Because if we followed the rules to the dot there would be heaven on earth and we're not ready for that yet."

Wow. Just Wow. You really believe that if we all stoned our rebellious children to death that we would have heaven on Earth? You surely don't believe this is true or you would man-up and follow god's rules to the dot. Saying it is somehow weak NOT to stone your own children to death is a disgusting proposition and a remarkable bit of ethical gymnastics to reconcile the fact that your bible commands you to do something you know to be evil.

As for the "old testament" argument. Don't try to tell me that Jesus nullified the commandments of the old testament with a new and everlasting covenant unless you are willing to throw "the" 10 commandments out with the bathwater.

Mr. Truth - At the heart of belief is the word lie. You couldn't face the truth if it were handed to you on the "proverbial" silver platter.

Yes, we do have to deal with the lunatics in the world who are waiting for the "Rapture" and think that everyone should be(lie)ve and live exactly as they do. They are trying to impose their ignorance on everyone everywhere all the time. They are the anti - everything group - especially anti- intelligence. They got their start with Constantine a lifelong pagan - a psychopath who murdered his wife and son - decided to unify all religions with the doctrine of the deity of "Jesus" a "new religion" that would amalgamate every religion. The Roman government thought this was a great way to build an Empire that would rule the world, and that "new" idea is still with us. "Jesus can't come back until every knee is bowed to them" and they be(lie)ve that the "Jesus" Empire one-day will control all the people and resources of the world. Most people don't know what's going on and they don't care, because if they did, they would be concerned about the brainwashed people that are under their control. These are the same people who want to rid the library of books they decide nobody should be allowed to read. Real dangerous things like Harry Potter. They exalt Faith Healers over Physicians or National Healthcare, want to teach pseudoscience by mandate, and raised the dumb violent sport of football to nationwide significance.

I don't think a dimwit like you needs to tell atheists what they need to understand. You need to understand that atheists and other like-minded people can face reality. The people involved in the swirly-eyed fantasyland of frazzle that is being pimped to the simps by various con artists are as dumb as dog poop and will never contribute anything useful to any society.

We know that we can only solve problems with what is real, and not with some contrived fantasies about demons, angels, and gods. The starving people of the world should not have "Jesus" forced down their throats for a few crumbs off the table. "Yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters table." Be willing to accept greed.

I think most people stop doing things over and over again when they don't work except for the very insane and that's what swirly eyed fanatics are, and frankly they are dangerous.

There are a lot of things that could be done to rid the world of depravity and religion is at the top of that list. Organized religion does not mold human behavior into something better it only promotes Witch-Hunts, superstition and ignorance, which is the main reason you find it important to force your ignorance on people who do not agree with you. While charity gives crumbs from the table social justice offers a place at the table.

*** Mr. Truth - At the heart of belief is the word lie. You couldn't face the truth if it were handed to you on the "proverbial" silver platter. ***

At the heart of belief is admitting that you are a sinner and you come to God acknowledging that. Losing all pride & ego. Humble yourself and believe in the Lord.

You're truth is that we are dirt, dust, etc and well we're lucky to be here. A product of random chance.

**** Yes, we do have to deal with the lunatics in the world who are waiting for the "Rapture" and think that everyone should be(lie)ve and live exactly as they do. ****

If everyone followed the Bible to the dot we would have heaven on Earth. Life would be perfect and beautiful. Without fear of the Lord there cannot be order.

Rapture says that the mark of the beast will come and that you won't be able to buy or sell without this mark. Lets see if something like that eventually shows.

**** They are trying to impose their ignorance on everyone everywhere all the time. They are the anti - everything group - especially anti- intelligence. ****

What you call "ignorance" we call "morality". The Bible speaks out against being a sloth meaning don't be lazy. Analyzing and understanding Gods tools (how things work on Earth) is vital. But if you successfully analyze Gods tools and figure out how to use it for your own gain, it does not give you the right to say "God doesn't exist".

There are atheists who pose as theists knowing full well that there are ignorant masses out there who can be taken advantage of. If these people feared the Lord then they wouldn't be stealing from people.

***** They got their start with Constantine a lifelong pagan - a psychopath who murdered his wife and son - decided to unify all religions with the doctrine of the deity of "Jesus" a "new religion" that would amalgamate every religion. The Roman government thought this was a great way to build an Empire that would rule the world, and that "new" idea is still with us. "Jesus can't come back until every knee is bowed to them" and they be(lie)ve that the "Jesus" Empire one-day will control all the people and resources of the world. Most people don't know what's going on and they don't care, because if they did, they would be concerned about the brainwashed people that are under their control. These are the same people who want to rid the library of books they decide nobody should be allowed to read. Real dangerous things like Harry Potter. They exalt Faith Healers over Physicians or National Healthcare, want to teach pseudoscience by mandate, and raised the dumb violent sport of football to nationwide significance. ****

You're beef is with organized religion. I'm a Christian, not a catholic. Christianity is nothing more than a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. That's it. Simple. Everything outside of that are man made rules (catholics).

Now let's say we're 100% wrong about Jesus and Christianity. At least God sees that we assume He is forgiving and loving. I want God to see that I'm trying to not only believe in Him but submit to Him in every way possible.

Tommorow morning I will eat breakfast like you, go to work like you, work hard like you, etc. The difference is I thank the force that gave me this life. I did not make my life, nor did my parents make theirs. As a reflection of my personality I assume this force is beautiful, strong, loving and deserves my utmost respect. The best way to respect it is to submit. Life is so beautiful at times that the best way to respect it is to assume this creator is intelligent, benevolent, loving, strong, unforgiving at times, the ultimate leader.

*** I don't think a dimwit like you needs to tell atheists what they need to understand. You need to understand that atheists and other like-minded people can face reality. The people involved in the swirly-eyed fantasyland of frazzle that is being pimped to the simps by various con artists are as dumb as dog poop and will never contribute anything useful to any society. ***

You are an atheist. I as a Christian am telling you what you need to understand. You need to understand that first comes mans intent. It comes before EVERYTHING. You need money, with what intention will you earn it? Will you do x for money, y for money. What will you do for the money?

What man does with his intent is up to him. If he chooses to exploit religion, government, windows, lindows, fire then it's his EVIL intent. Banish money, religion, government, windows, lindows, fire and you will still be left with MAN who is capable of both good & evil.

**** We know that we can only solve problems with what is real, and not with some contrived fantasies about demons, angels, and gods. The starving people of the world should not have "Jesus" forced down their throats for a few crumbs off the table. "Yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters table." Be willing to accept greed. ****

You give people fear of the Lord, you give them order. Those starving people need order in their lives.

**** I think most people stop doing things over and over again when they don't work except for the very insane and that's what swirly eyed fanatics are, and frankly they are dangerous.***

Remove religion and the danger will still be there. That is the topic of my post. Man's intent is capable of being good or evil.

**** There are a lot of things that could be done to rid the world of depravity *****

Eliminate man's "greed". Greed comes before religion. You could rid the world of religion but man would still be capable of greed.

**** and religion is at the top of that list. Organized religion does not mold human behavior into something better it only promotes Witch-Hunts, superstition and ignorance, which is the main reason you find it important to force your ignorance on people who do not agree with you. While charity gives crumbs from the table social justice offers a place at the table.****

Hmmm I agree that religions can be corrupt. I'm not peddling a religion to you.

The only thing I'm asking you guys to do is develop a relationship with God that is outside organized religion. It's just you & God that's it. Wake up every morning, get on your knees and just thank the Lord and show Him you fear and respect Him. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Before you claim pascal's wager. Let's ponder one of pascal's points:

"There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.[5]"

He agrees there are natural laws. I tell you this Linda. I did not make these laws, nor did you, nor did my parents. These laws maintain consistency. We can reliably test these laws and I repeat they maintain consistency.

I say "who" you say "what".

I find it hypocritical. Humans form laws and rules everyday but as soon as we discover a law or rule outside of our own boundaries we immediately say "what" instead of "who".

Mr. Truth - the title says everything but....

You say God exists, but the bible says many gods exist: According to the scriptures God has some competition. It seems that "He" is not alone. There seems to be more than one god. How many gods are there? There are verses where we are told that God is greater than other GODS. Psalms 135:5 - For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all GODS. Psalms 135:5 - For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all GODS. The scriptures clearly indicate a belief that other gods exist. The book of Jasher - And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness - More than one - And God formed man from the ground, and he blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul endowed with speech. It's the Scripture that says man came from dirt not science.

The "Rapture" where xians get beamed up to heaven before Armageddon is not in Revelation. A con artist and thief named Cyrus Schofield promoted the idea of the "Rapture." He used it to help with a revival when religion was waning in America about 100 years ago. He thought that it might not be a bad idea to tell the believers that the only way to avoid the pandemonium of Armageddon was to be sucked up into heaven before death. It was not in the scriptures until he put it there, not even maybe. John 3:13, "no man hath ascended up to Heaven." The ancient Hebrews had no idea of an immortal soul living a life beyond death, nor of any resurrection or return from death. The Hebrew word nephesh, traditionally translated "living soul" but more properly understood as "living creature," is the same word used for all breathing creatures and refers to nothing immortal. In ancient Hebrew there is no view of the future for the individual human person, certainly not when contrasted with the later ideas that arose-such as resurrection of the dead or eternal life in heaven. The book Isaiah through Malachi, primarily in these texts written before, during, and after the period of exile by Hebrew Prophets is when the afterlife view starts to change because the idea came from the Egyptians. The idea of an afterlife comes from the Egyptian Book Of The Dead - much earlier, and with Christianity it evolved. Man does not have an immortal soul. Souls can die, Ezekiel 18:20. In the day of a man's death, his thoughts perish, Psalms 146:4. 1 Corinthians 15:51. Verse 52 the dead in Christ won't go to Heaven when they die--they will be resurrected to eternal life when He returns. That makes it pretty clear that the "Rapture" is not happening - because the story goes that Jesus comes back after the final battle.

Cyrus Schofield is the man responsible for writing the Schofield (now called NIV) interpretation of Bible used by most Christian Fundamentalists Churches in America. As a young con-artist in Kansas after the Civil War Schofield became partners with John J. Ingalls, and later was involved in a railroad scam which led to Cyrus serving time for criminal forgery. While he was in prison, Schofield began studying the philosophy of John Darby, pioneer of the Plymouth Brethren movement and the "any moments now" Rapture doctrine. Upon his release from prison, Schofield deserted his first wife, Leonteen Carry Schofield, and his two daughters Abigail and Helen, and he took as his mistress a young girl from the St. Louis Flower Mission. He later abandoned her for Helen van Ward, whom he eventually married. Schofield picked up the idea of the "Rapture" from a defrocked Anglican minister John Nelson Darby. "Doctor" Schofield introduced the "Rapture". Schofield never attended college, but he lied and said he did.

You couldn't provide a shred of proof for anything that you want us to believe. Come back when you get some. I don't think that any atheists will be choking on the high-handed rhetoric of snake-oil peddling charlatans who think they have a shred of morality to talk down to others about.

Today we have ways to prove whether or not any person of any significance lived, and Jesus is nothing more than a concoction of the disgraceful Constantine and the vile Roman Empire. You have written enough on this message board for anyone to know that you do not have the necessary knowledge to make decisions about what the "truth" is on the subject of ancient history, science or even religion.

Your claims of humbleness are filled with the kind of arrogance that belies those very claims. Have you ever actually read a science book or the Bible or do you just pull your answers out of your ass?

I don't want to get lost in words. But beneath words lies intention and underlying meanings. You are approaching me from a lawyers point of view.

My basic underlying meaning is this. There is a force which I believe is in intelligent. It made everything. I respect it and submit to this force. I give it thanks. I believe this force wants me to know both good and evil with the intent of me developing a personality from my experiences. And only then when I've formed my own unique personality can I then go to this force and be with Him. I have to show Him in every way possible that I submit to Him.

Now let's say I'm 100% wrong about the Bible. At least this force will see that I tried my absolute hardest to please Him. Why Christianity? Because it is important that the best way for everyone to know God is easy and widespread. Islam & Christianity are so widespread and they both originate (not entirely) from the same books.

Now atheists on the other hand don't want to give this force any respect (respect & fear are the same). You don't want to get on your knees and worship it. You need to ask yourself why? Then once you do that, let go of your anger. Then you'll come to know God.

You're problem is with man, not God.

Don't copy what I said without putting it in quotes with my name. Especially since you are not answering what was said. You are just copying it and then making nonsensical remarks that are not related to the comments, and are not rebuttals of the facts that you were presented with.

Mr. T said, "You're truth is that we are dirt, dust, etc and well we're lucky to be here. A product of random chance."

The Answer: "God formed man from the ground, and he blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul endowed with speech." It's the Scripture that says man came from dirt, not science. You wouldn't understand the theory of evolution if it were fastidiously spelled out for you. You say that we believe that life came from dirt but when someone proves that the Scriptures clearly indicate life came from dirt - not science (and there is more than one god) you don't want to address the issues.

Mr. T said, "Rapture says that the mark of the beast will come and that you won't be able to buy or sell without this mark. Lets see if something like that eventually shows."

The Answer: Sorry you will be waiting a long time for the rapture. Don't hold your breath...on second thought do hold your breath. A con artist and thief named Cyrus Schofield promoted the idea of the "Rapture." He used it to help with a revival when religion was waning in America about 100 years ago. He thought that it might not be a bad idea to tell the believers that the only way to avoid the pandemonium of Armageddon was to be sucked up into heaven. It is not in the scriptures, not even maybe. John 3:13, "no man hath ascended up to Heaven." The scripture state no one will go to heaven until Christ returns, and don't hold your breath for that one either. There is still no rapture.

Mr. T said, "There are atheists who pose as theists knowing full well that there are ignorant masses out there who can be taken advantage of. If these people feared the Lord then they wouldn't be stealing from people."

It doesn't surprise me that you would try to pawn the disgraceful conduct of the churchly on atheists. Atheists are far more interested in the truth than any of these lying con artists who pretend that they want to know the truth when the truth is a major threat to them in the first place. They have pulled ever string in the book to keep truth from ever seeing the light of day. I guess you need to try and impress upon someone that these liars and con artists are atheists.

Mr. T. Said, "You're beef is with organized religion. I'm a Christian, not a catholic. Christianity is nothing more than a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. That's it. Simple. Everything outside of that are man made rules (catholics)."

It's simple all right and pointless. There wouldn't be any Christian Religion without the Roman government institutionalizing religion and calling it Christianity. And that's where Christianity comes from - all of the so-called gospels and everything. Your personal relationship with god doesn't change that fact. Some people do believe in things that are not real and they can't conceive of anyone who has not been threatened and bullied into the same kind of idiocy. But there are people who have not been brainwashed from birth, and I suggest that you need to understand that. The numbers of enlightened, educated people that have the guts to accept the truth is growing.

Mr. T. said, "I don't want to get lost in words. But beneath words lies intention and underlying meanings. You are approaching me from a lawyers point of view."

No, I am giving the facts and you can't answer them with anything but evasions and your fantasies. Mr. T. Said, "Remove religion and the danger will still be there. That is the topic of my post. Man's intent is capable of being good or evil."

For someone to question or suggest another type of law based on their belief would be more desirable than the Constitution is disgusting. No religious belief is superior to the Constitution; not the Christians, Muslims or any other in our land. We have a duty to obey the law of the Land. And that can be done without any belief in an invisible deity - unless the person is insane. I don't have any use for people who are selling fabricated lies. If you want to talk about the motivations of people - I think that there are people who are pretty worthless with or without religious hero worship.

What you have written represents an utter misunderstanding of evolutionary theory or anything that would require finding out the actual fact of the matter. It took 14 billion years of cosmic evolution from the Big Bang to human evolution. It represents what scientists have learned through hard work and studies that incorporate the studies of astronomy, astrophysics, paleontology, geology, climatology, evolution of life and molecular biology. A non-science fanatic shouldn't and couldn't discuss any of this intelligently. What scientists have found through their work explains what has occurred from the origin of the universe to the evolution of life on Earth and that research has lead to things that benefit man. Saying god did it has answered nothing and has benefited no man.

Science has answered some very important questions. Because of them we do know the origin of the Universe, how stars and planets form and how life began. And how intelligence evolved. The studies that have been done by physicists, biologists, astronomers and geologists have been combined to create a chronicle of events in which the Universe evolved over billions of years into conscious life.

You can't admit that religion is man made, because you can't defend the obvious ignorance and contradictions to the Scriptures, but they are without a doubt man made, and that is exactly where you got your religion.

What you are spreading is man made-up religion, and you have no more proof of you're god than someone has proof that flying monkeys came out of their ass.

**** The Answer: "God formed man from the ground, and he blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul endowed with speech." It's the Scripture that says man came from dirt, not science. You wouldn't understand the theory of evolution if it were fastidiously spelled out for you. You say that we believe that life came from dirt but when someone proves that the Scriptures clearly indicate life came from dirt - not science (and there is more than one god) you don't want to address the issues. ****

I said that you believe in dirt. Meaning you can see the dirt, you can feel it with your hand so you believe it's there and that's it. As an atheist you believe when we die we are buried in the dirt and nothing more, no eternal life.

Sure it says we came from the dirt in the Bible but don't forget about the part where God breathes life into us. Your belief leaves the God part out which is why I said you believe in the dirt and nothing more.

See what a waste of time this response was? I expect you to understand my underlying meaning without picking on my every word and dissecting it like a lawyer (lol).

**** The Answer: Sorry you will be waiting a long time for the rapture. Don't hold your breath...on second thought do hold your breath. A con artist and thief named Cyrus Schofield promoted the idea of the "Rapture." He used it to help with a revival when religion was waning in America about 100 years ago. He thought that it might not be a bad idea to tell the believers that the only way to avoid the pandemonium of Armageddon was to be sucked up into heaven. It is not in the scriptures, not even maybe. John 3:13, "no man hath ascended up to Heaven." The scripture state no one will go to heaven until Christ returns, and don't hold your breath for that one either. There is still no rapture. ****

Ok let's see it your way for a second. Let's assume the Bible is 48% incorrect. What should I do? Should I not be a Christian anymore? What about the other 52% which may be accurate? What if man mixed in lies with the truth? What then? Should I follow my doubt or my hope? Oh wait a second I CAN DO BOTH and be a balanced person!

**** Linda said, It doesn't surprise me that you would try to pawn the disgraceful conduct of the churchly on atheists. ****

There are more atheists in this country than you would think hehe.

**** Atheists are far more interested in the truth than any of these lying con artists who pretend that they want to know the truth when the truth is a major threat to them in the first place. They have pulled ever string in the book to keep truth from ever seeing the light of day. I guess you need to try and impress upon someone that these liars and con artists are atheists. ****

Atheist = Do not believe in Gods therefore have nothing to fear.

Believers = Believe in God and Fear the Lord.

Why would a believer steal from the masses knowing full well it goes against Gods will? The only answer is that the person is actually an atheist since they do not believe in or fear the Lord.

***** Linda said, It's simple all right and pointless. There wouldn't be any Christian Religion without the Roman government institutionalizing religion and calling it Christianity. ****

Hmm are you saying that no one would of known about Jesus if it wasn't for the Roman government?

**** Linda says, And that's where Christianity comes from - all of the so-called gospels and everything. Your personal relationship with god doesn't change that fact. ****

Ok so I accept the possibility of errancy. Doubt is healthy. Is it going to stop me from believing in a supreme higher power? No. I need to show that higher power that I totally and completely submit to His will in every way I possibly can.

**** Linda say, Some people do believe in things that are not real and they can't conceive of anyone who has not been threatened and bullied into the same kind of idiocy. But there are people who have not been brainwashed from birth, and I suggest that you need to understand that. The numbers of enlightened, educated people that have the guts to accept the truth is growing. ****

Atheists are one sided. Christians embrace both God and science.

**** Linda says, No, I am giving the facts and you can't answer them with anything but evasions and your fantasies. Mr. T. Said, "Remove religion and the danger will still be there. That is the topic of my post. Man's intent is capable of being good or evil." ****

**** Linda says, For someone to question or suggest another type of law based on their belief would be more desirable than the Constitution is disgusting. No religious belief is superior to the Constitution; not the Christians, Muslims or any other in our land. ****

God gave us free will and the constitution allows the full use of our free will. You can choose the Lord or you can choose the enemy. Forcing someone to believe in God usually results in resentment and rebellion.

**** Linda says, We have a duty to obey the law of the Land. And that can be done without any belief in an invisible deity - unless the person is insane. I don't have any use for people who are selling fabricated lies. If you want to talk about the motivations of people - I think that there are people who are pretty worthless with or without religious hero worship. ****

Laws can change depending on who comes into power. You believe in a system of "power and those without", I believe in the universal laws of God found in the Bible. Every law I've read in the Bible (harsh and cruel) if followed will guarantee the road to salvation and most important keep the family intact.

**** Linda says, What you have written represents an utter misunderstanding of evolutionary theory or anything that would require finding out the actual fact of the matter. ****

You believe the mutations are random, I believe they were intentional.

**** Linda says, It took 14 billion years of cosmic evolution from the Big Bang to human evolution. It represents what scientists have learned through hard work and studies that incorporate the studies of astronomy, astrophysics, paleontology, geology, climatology, evolution of life and molecular biology. ****

They honor God by working hard. If they themselves don't believe in God then they are working for their paycheck. But some will actually work hard for humanity, humanists loving themselves. But they fail to realize that they did not make themselves nor did their parents make themselves. And seeing how there is no objective evidence for abiogenesis, spontaneous generation, evolution, or even our Lord (His decision) it's funny that a lot of these scientists don't believe in God. With great intelligence comes power. Will you let the power get to your head and make you become prideful and egotistical?

**** A non-science fanatic shouldn't and couldn't discuss any of this intelligently. What scientists have found through their work explains what has occurred from the origin of the universe to the evolution of life on Earth and that research has lead to things that benefit man. Saying god did it has answered nothing and has benefited no man. ****

You're right. You're 100% right. Saying God did it answers nothing in our benefit. But guess what. It makes God feel good when we acknowledge that everything comes from Him and He sees us thinking about Him, recognizing how powerful He is. It's not supposed to be for you or me. It's supposed to be for HIM. You actually said something I agree with! NICE :)

**** Linda says, Science has answered some very important questions. *****

Thank the Lord for giving us problems we can find solutions for.

**** Linda says, Because of them we do know the origin of the Universe, how stars and planets form and how life began. And how intelligence evolved. The studies that have been done by physicists, biologists, astronomers and geologists have been combined to create a chronicle of events in which the Universe evolved over billions of years into conscious life. ****

There is no conflict here with the belief in God putting all these chronicle of events into motion.

**** Linda says, you can't admit that religion is man made, because you can't defend the obvious ignorance and contradictions to the Scriptures, but they are without a doubt man made, and that is exactly where you got your religion. ****

I can admit that there is a chance lies and truth have been mixed in the Bible. But let God see that I want to one day become an evangelical.

**** Linda says, What you are spreading is man made-up religion, and you have no more proof of you're god than someone has proof that flying monkeys came out of their ass. ****

You have no objective evidence for abiogenesis, spontaneous generation or evolution.

Let me ask you this, when humanity first wielded blunt objects as weapons was that science? From blunt weapons to bows. From bows to guns. From guns to explosives and you know where I'm going from here.

Let's say that for a moment there is no more belief in an all mighty being and that science is the new religion. You think the world will all of a sudden be a better place to live?

"Now that we don't have to believe in God anymore we can stop killing each other. We don't need to invade Iraq (pre-emptive, secure oil, secure region) because we don't have to believe in God anymore.

"Palestinians and Israelis won't be fighting each other anymore because they don't have to believe in God anymore (battle over territory)".

"Now that we don't have to believe in God anymore the drug dealers in Cuba will stop fighting each other since they don't have to believe in God anymore (battle over drug control)"

Want me to keep going?

Thank God atheists make up a small population on this planet. You kids need to grow up. It's ok if you're an atheist and you're under 25. But if you're over 25 and still an atheist it's like come on move out of your moms basement already. Teens rebel against their parents, atheists rebel against their God.

I thought you didn't care about having power? Why do care if atheist makes up a small population? Are you afraid that the religious will be less and less influential? Are you afraid that your precise belief is going to be taken away? Don't you believe that your God is going to protect you? Sorry, but your God is powerless once again and soon your archaic beliefs will fade in the tide of times. As we learn more about this reality and our place in it, your God will not be necessary because its base on fairy tales. It's a laugh that you try to defend ridiculous claims of origins and perform you mental gymnastics. It say in some book that God breathe life and that's how humans got here and you believe without question that is what happened. Your belief is a joke and more and more people will realize how stupid the religious claims are. As soon as you realize that all your ideas about God was made up by man, the better this world will be. You are nothing more than follower, repeating the same crap over and over again because you don't have one original thought inside that feeble brain of yours. Do you stick your fingers in your ear when someone blasts you with facts and debunks your claims? Why don't you just keep your beliefs to yourself?

Leysin said, "Are you afraid that your precise belief is going to be taken away?"

Nobody is trying to take anyone's "precise beliefs" away. There are people trying to force their beliefs and preferences on atheists. There is a big difference in atheists telling anyone that they are not interested in superstitious beliefs, activities or those involved in them, and trying to take their "precise beliefs" away.

I thought the science that disputes his claims were very accurately explained and didn't really need repeating.

Ray,

You seem to have a problem with any comments I make. It's a rhetorical question. Do you not think if their precise beliefs can be taken away that easily then there wouldn't be an atheist that would try to do it? I'm sure that if an atheist could knock some sense into some theist they would. This is the only time I have responded to you because you seem to be up my ass. If you got a personal problem with me then that's all you. You want to personally attack me then do it. You want to make this personal then say what you want to say. You don't need to hide behind Mr. T or wait until I make a comment for you to critique.

Ray,

It was very correct to point out that the previous posters were never talking about any specific religion or "precise belief". I think whom and what was misleading was stated without any qualms. I don't think it has escaped the attention of too many people that the Mr. T. pseudonym is being used to continue to pursue Linda, and butt in on every (past discussion) that anyone has had with her. Like "The Definition of Love" - emotions did evolve as a trait in order for mammals to survive. "What's the deal with Infinity" there was no "time before time" for God to exist in. Time and space had a beginning. The Universe had a beginning and it is not infinite. I think that someone has a problem with Linda; and they think that religion and science are compatible, and appears to be trying to prove that he is better in science. A lot like someone who thought the "elements are encoded in Genesis".

Atheism is the absence of belief period. It is usually just stated as the lack of a belief in God, but it is more than that. It makes no sense to believe in any supernatural claim; it is not logical, there is no evidence to support any of it, and the claims have been proven false. As a rule atheists don't believe in magic. There is less reason to believe in the supernatural than to believe in some things that there are only serious doubts about. There is no logical reason to believe in any god. That is all anyone involved in the original discussion was saying. We know that certain religions promote the idea that atheism poses a threat to their beliefs. That's why it is important to mention that atheists are not singling out any "precise belief". The logical conclusion is that a button pushing issue was being introduced into a discussion that it had nothing to do with.

It is comparable to people who think that there is nothing wrong with trying to force their preferences or beliefs on atheists, and I guess nobody should point out that what they believe an atheist shouldn't have a problem doing is of no consequence since they are not atheists? The interest is in keeping bogus topics afloat that the atheists were not interested in to begin with. When someone is trying to convert people with inane assumptions that an atheist shouldn't have a problem joining in on certain activities by making fake claims, someone probably will straighten them out, and nobody agreed. With the exception of "A Mighty Ham" who didn't know that a Priest would not marry a Catholic to a non-Catholic by simply going on a retreat. They would have to take instructions, be baptized and convert to Catholicism first. Retreats are the specialty of Protestant fanatics who get people to "retreats" in secluded places away from anything or anybody and bombard them with brainwashing babble. If what someone is saying and doing is bogus; and they have a problem with their intent to glorify their preferences being pointed out, that's just too bad. However, there was no attempt to force atheism on them, and I do think that is a very significant fact to point out. I think that the preceding posts made it perfectly clear that nobody was interested in debating things for which there is no evidence. The atheists are not interested in what Mr. T. is hawking. If Mr. T. is happy in the pursuit of his chimera have a nice life.

Atheists are not interested in beliefs; consequently, they sure don't care about different beliefs, unlike certain religious group who really do believe that if their beliefs aren't explicitly favored and promoted they are being persecuted. It should be pointed out that their suspicions should not be minimized. They all believe that if the government does not promote their religion it is supporting atheism, and they extrapolate that into having atheism forced on them too. When none of these religious groups would support any other religion, and they are the first to point out the flaws and lack of evidence in other religions, but when it comes to their own mythology the absence of evidence and logical arguments are immaterial.

Bringing attention to the basic danger of trying to misdirect the discussion to a "precise belief" was legitimate, because it is any dogmatic belief that makes it possible for people to adopt attitudes that are dangerous, harmful, and hateful. The direction the discussion has taken wouldn't enlighten or illuminate anyone on any topic, any more than introducing pseudo-science into past discussions where the debater very successfully established their case did.

People's age is nobody's business and has nothing to do with any discussion. The strategy of trying to direct the discussion into personal information or insults is not going to work any better than bringing the groundless religious philosophy into the realm of science did, and then argue that science promotes absurdities. None of this is going to work, and I agree that his science was adequately debunked.

Leysin you're under 25 right? :P I remember when I was an atheist and 23 years old. I wouldn't listen to anyone. I wouldn't even try to see someone elses point of view lol!

It's weird but some people never outgrow their rebellious nature.

Your guess is wrong as usual. I'm in my 30's, not rebellious, not vengeful, just tired of religious rhetoric. How can I see your point of view when I believe it to be delusional. What else can I say. I think when you say that you hear God speaking to you and that you feel God's presence, you are delusional. Its pretty simple. When I see a mentally disturbs person talk about how they hear voices in their head and that God is telling them to do things, they need medical attention. Believe whatever you want just keep your beliefs to yourself, that's all there is to it. Your God is powerless because it's imaginary, created by primitive man and your own delusional mind. Seems fairly simple but you don't seem like you are able to contain yourself. Which to me means that you are very really screwed up in the head and you have been so brainwashed you can't see straight. All I can say is good luck wasting your existance on something that is not real.

**** Your guess is wrong as usual. I'm in my 30's, not rebellious, not vengeful, just tired of religious rhetoric. ****

Aaah ok so you're one of those who haven't outgrown atheism yet.

**** How can I see your point of view when I believe it to be delusional. ****

Because you're close minded and one sided.

*** What else can I say. I think when you say that you hear God speaking to you and that you feel God's presence, you are delusional. ****

We all have a conscience.

**** Its pretty simple. When I see a mentally disturbs person talk about how they hear voices in their head and that God is telling them to do things, they need medical attention. ****

Yea some people take it a bit too far, but what they are trying to say is that they are listening to their conscience and consider it their gateway to the Lord (which it is).

**** Believe whatever you want just keep your beliefs to yourself, that's all there is to it. ****

I don't want people to go to Hell. I need to help people get over their pride and ego.

**** Your God is powerless because it's imaginary, created by primitive man and your own delusional mind. Seems fairly simple but you don't seem like you are able to contain yourself. Which to me means that you are very really screwed up in the head and you have been so brainwashed you can't see straight. All I can say is good luck wasting your existance on something that is not real. ****

Two things. 1) You're girlfriend is a Christian 2) Show her you're brave enough to attend church for a year (if not then it officially proves you are one sided and close minded). I study both the word of God and embrace science, you should do the same instead of just embracing science. Be balanced!

Still talking out your ass I see. Why do you say that I am one who hasn't outgrown atheism yet? Did your God tell you that or did you come up with that yourself? You seem to claim you know who I am and what life I've lived. Is that your way of asserting your authority by mischaracterizing people? Tell me more about who I am. Do you not understand that I don't believe in your God? Are you that closed minded yourself when you can't accept that there are people that live perfectly good lives without that belief? How is it that you accuse others of pride and ego when you prided yourself on your faith and egotistically assert that you must be right about your beliefs? Again, "mental gymnastics". And on a personal note, my girlfriend is not a Christian, she might have grown up in a Christian home, but she identifies herself as agnostic, that's from her mouth. I consider her still a theist because she has theist tendencies that she has yet to discard, but she is trying real hard to rid herself from it. And every moment she sheds those childish thoughts, who do you think is there to coach her out of it, me. And you can't do anything about it. Sorry, as long as I am with her your dumbass religion isn't going to abuse her mind any longer. And typical of a believer to bring up the dreadful "Hell". Your "go to" scare tactic when all your arguments have failed. "Believe in God or God will punish!" You're still a follower, repeating the same crap over and over. Do you believe that the more times you tell yourself God is real, then it must be real. Keep on clicking them heels because that's the closest you are going to get to have your God be real. I don't want to see you waste your life or on a ridiculous religion, but I you live your life they way you choose. But I do advise that you keep your beliefs to yourself.

**** Still talking out your ass I see. Why do you say that I am one who hasn't outgrown atheism yet? ****

You haven't learned to strike a balance between religion and science. You're extreme on one side with no respect for the other. And now that you found someone who makes you super happy YOU STILL won't try to be part of both sides.

*** Did your God tell you that or did you come up with that yourself? ****

hehe I have never ever heard God's audbile voice outside my head nor inside my head. Although I do believe our conscience is a channel to both good and evil.

**** You seem to claim you know who I am and what life I've lived. Is that your way of asserting your authority by mischaracterizing people? Tell me more about who I am. Do you not understand that I don't believe in your God? ****

It's not my God. It's thee God. Yours mine but we have no possession over Him. He owns us. Why? Because we did not make ourselves nor did our parents make themselves. We owe God our life but please do not confuse this God with man. Humans are sinners but God is perfect.

**** Are you that closed minded yourself when you can't accept that there are people that live perfectly good lives without that belief? ****

These people who live perfectly good lives without belief. Did they make their own body? Did their parents make their own body? They think that somehow they made themselves? It is very important you pay respects to whoever or whatever made us. It is a reflection of your personality.

Do you understand this: YOU DID NOT MAKE YOURSELF. YOUR PARENTS DID NOT MAKE THEMSELVES. YOU MUST RESPECT AND LOVE WHO OR WHATEVER DID AS A REFLECTION OF YOUR UNSELFISH PERSONALITY.

If you can't pay this force respect then you have a problem with your personality called selfishness, ego and pride.

**** How is it that you accuse others of pride and ego when you prided yourself on your faith and egotistically assert that you must be right about your beliefs? ****

I don't assert that I'm 100% right about my beliefs. But i'm open minded enough to understand that there is a possibility that God exists. So it is very important for God to see me submit to Him and at least see me try to reach Him, understand Him, fear Him, etc. I will never be an extreme person like you who will live and swim in doubt.

**** Again, "mental gymnastics". And on a personal note, my girlfriend is not a Christian, she might have grown up in a Christian home, but she identifies herself as agnostic, that's from her mouth. I consider her still a theist because she has theist tendencies that she has yet to discard, but she is trying real hard to rid herself from it. ****

Aah ok part agnostic and part theist, that sometimes is a healthy balance. Because the agnostic side of a person says "there is no objective evidence", but then the theistic person says "well I value humanity so much I believe we live on eternally". You yourself demand objective evidence and without it you do not respect humanity. You believe we die and end up in the dirt and there is nothing more.

**** And every moment she sheds those childish thoughts, who do you think is there to coach her out of it, me. And you can't do anything about it. ****

Learn to be like a judge. Learn to look at two sides without individual bias. You are very selfish you know that right? Knowing full well her family is Christian you try to take away from the values instilled by her parents. Ultimately it means you do not respect her family. At the same time your family is important too. Are they atheists or Buddhists? I am very fascinated by Buddhism actually. A good friend of mine is Buddhist and we push each others limits a great deal.

Are you open to Buddhism or are you close minded there too? Your way is the only way right? lol.

**** Sorry, as long as I am with her your dumbass religion isn't going to abuse her mind any longer. ****

Are you sure you're not under 25? It's ok if you are I won't hold your age against you.

**** And typical of a believer to bring up the dreadful "Hell". Your "go to" scare tactic when all your arguments have failed. ****

Well it comes down to this. If you want to be with God in heaven he welcomes you. But if you'd rather go to Hell then that is your choice. He respects your decision. God gives us power. The power to choose. Free will is a huge responsibility.

I'm going to pray that God will take down your ego and pride wall for 10 seconds so you can understand this statement.

Hitler killed 6 million. Yet in the end he took his own life. In the balance of justice does that sound right to you? Does it make moral sense that someone can go around killing 20-30 people, 100's of people but then simply turn the weapon on himself? The balance of justice isn't correct. It makes sense that a place like Hell would exist to punish these people.

As men we are not very attuned to our emotions. But we cannot trust logic alone. You must also trust how you feel. Learn to be balanced.

**** "Believe in God or God will punish!" You're still a follower, repeating the same crap over and over. Do you believe that the more times you tell yourself God is real, then it must be real. Keep on clicking them heels because that's the closest you are going to get to have your God be real. I don't want to see you waste your life or on a ridiculous religion, but I you live your life they way you choose. But I do advise that you keep your beliefs to yourself. *****

We should probably end this conversation soon. How about you issue a challenge to me and I will issue a challenge to you. Everyday I read science articles, journals and i'm fascinated with all the discoveries man has made. Some theories are very thought provoking and open my mind. But theistic thought also opens my mind.

I embrace both science and theism. The only reason I'm a christian vs the other religions is because Christianity demands such a high degree of submission. It requires so much submission that I am unable to submit to such a level. So then I get on knees and realize my limits and capacity of my sin.

You're going to have the last word, if you respond I will read it :) If you are over 30 then I respect you since you are older than me.

Mr. T.,

Take this charade to a Christian apologetic's message board; it's right on their level. This is not interesting, enlightening or amusing. They will love it.

**** Pi said, Take this charade to a Christian apologetic's message board; it's right on their level. This is not interesting, enlightening or amusing. They will love it. ****

If you notice Leysin was responding to my post, and then I responded to his post. Pi you chose to read this thread and then you decided it had no merit. If you have not been enlightened at all by this thread then it proves my point that all atheists have a "know it all" mentality. If you cannot even admit this thread pushed your limits by 1% then it is you who have a problem. It seems this thread has actually benefited you by shining light on your personality flaw.

Pi your statement is slowly leading me to believe that an atheist is not really a person who does not believe in God, but a person who needs help with their ego.

I believe you are the kind of person who is more interested in "being right" than "doing what's right" like 99% of atheists.

Mr. T,

I think what Pi is saying is this:

I'm sure there are some priceless gems in you posts, but we don't have the time to go on a scavenger hunt looking for them.

I do think that what you are writing is a reflection of your own inferiority. These are concepts that have been drummed into your weak mind; that individuality or intelligence needs to be quashed, and is the very essence of why you are such a screwed up low life.

What is not interesting is someone writing in the third person. You are too shallow, and far too ignorant to intelligently explain (to yourself) why the things that you think cause people to be abnormal are not abnormal. Everything you think is wrong with others is the very reason you are so base. This is nothing more than a self-serving explanation of how people get to be very sick. The problem is a massive inferiority complex and an unhealthy pattern of complying with what the majority of people are lead (by the nose) to believe.

Reality does not have an ego; consequently, we don't need to kiss up to it. Your "god" must also have a major inferiority complex if "He" needs praise constantly and incessantly.

You have been dumb enough to commit yourself to other's ego trip, and that can be a very dangerous thing to do. Truth does no need to be followed; everyone should find truth for themselves, and there is nothing more honorable than to allowing them the freedom to do that.

It is the inferiority within yourself that makes you want to find fault with others to make yourself feel better. You are an advocate of ego death because you can't deal with people who are confident and intelligent enough to expose the ignorance and fallacy of your beliefs. A fanatic is incapable of guiding himself.

It's human nature to have an ego; we have all got one. It is an inferiority complex that causes the ego to turn on itself and become destructive to others. That is what the Christian dogma, that humanity is bad, has produced. Teaching people that it is their ego that clouds judgment; when nothing clouds judgement more than brainwashing, dogma and their nauseating behavioral training. Once people stop thinking, they become automatons. A person that becomes brainwashed enough in their fanatical beliefs automatically rejects any contrasting evidence that proves what they believe is wrong. They believe that if most people think what they are like is normal, then it must be normal. You don't want to be odd, you want to fit in, so you become normal by what is defined normal by your abnormal slave master, and you love being brainwashed. You are too far-gone to be dealt with; you have a much bigger attraction towards feeling really good and happy than knowing what is real. Religion is a drug for the masses.

We are people who refuse to give our power away to people with unhealthy minds who have made unhealthy decisions. We do not have a problem standing up to ignorant religious fanatics who attempt their brainwashing process of tearing other people down to build themselves up on an atheist message board.

Does that just about sum things up Pi?

You say that you are balanced and that you embrace both science and religion. So what do you do when science and religion are completely at odds? What do you do when you know that the religious holy books you believe in have been proven false? How do you explain that your belief has not been consistent with reality? Again, you do it by mental gymnastics. You say that you're balance, but to me you have not said anything that resembles balance, you lean toward your religious beliefs. You even admit that you have to, "submit to Him and at least see me try to reach Him." In what logical sense do you call that balanced? I was right about you being totally screwed up in the head. To say that this God you believe in is thee God, I beg to differ. You defined it as everything and nothing, the all and end all. Where is the open-mind that you so believe you have? As much as you think your being balanced and reasonable you are not, you are completely devoted to your beliefs and to me that is ashamed. Your ability to decipher wrong and right, fact and fiction, real and imaginary is deficient. Being balance does not mean giving both sides equal legitimacy, but actually looking at evidence and weighing in which argument is most likely. And the scale is tipping to the side of no god. As much as you want to skew the fact on the side of your God and bend it to fit your beliefs, it will never be balanced. But I suppose you have you own very special scale that only you can use.

Mr. T, we Americans are fortunate that the Framers, including Benjamin Franklin and James Madison, had the wisdom and foresight to embrace science and technology and to cast religion adrift when devising our promising new system of government.

What you say is partially true. Religion is hardly the only motivating factor for atrocity. However, you do fail to recognize other things that separate religion from the listed items.

First, there is no good that comes exclusively from religion. All benefits attributed to religion can come from other sources. While fire has legitimately beneficial use, theism does not. There are good things that we can only achieve with fire. There is nothing good that religion holds such a monopoly on.

Religion can, though, create exclusive forms of harm. Religious morality is often valued by religious people more than secular morality. What good are our laws and values if someone believes that they have a superior guide that renders our systems irrelevant? If someone thinks that they will get eternal reward for, say, flying planes into buildings or killing doctors, what do they care if the rest of society disagrees? Belief in religious morality automatically de-values societal standards and ethics.

In this sense, religion is much like racism. I suspect that you'd hardly have a problem with moral denouncements of the latter. Despite the fact that many good things like technology can be used in massively destructive ways and do cause a greater value of harm than racism, the fact that racism is illogical, offers nothing of real value, and causes harm makes it an ideal target.

You take the view that those who do harm in the name of religion are simply exploiting it. Do you think that suicide bombers really want to kill themselves and just blame religion as an out? Seems to me that such action requires a pretty high level of genuine belief. But, for the sake of argument, let's pretend that greedy men do just exploit religion. How is it that these religions are so easy to exploit? If I tried to mount a genocide based on the teachings of Archie comics, I would simply be mocked. I'd have a hard time defending my position on the merits of Jughead's words. However, it is easy to justify such things using the Bible or Koran as a basis. Right there in many people's ultimate moral tome I can find the condoning of murder, theft, rape, and just about any harm I wish. Why is it that religious views are so easy to exploit?

Nobody is suggesting that the world would be entirely peaceful without religion. It would, however, be a hell of a lot better than it is now. If society as a whole were more skeptical and looked at all authorities critically, it would be much harder to justify atrocity.

I like the title for this thread. "It's not religion, it's man." That is exactly the point atheists are trying to make.

Wars are not committed over religion. Religion is simply the cover. Get rid of the cover and suddenly it becomes a whole lot harder to rouse the rabble.

Murders are not committed for religion either. Murderers use religion to justify their actions to themselves. But the act is always motivated by jealousy/self-loathing/greed, the usual suspects of psyche. Without religion propping up their cowardice, the trigger becomes harder to pull.

There has never been a better excuse for evil acts than religion. It is one-size fits all, and never goes out of style.

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